Quote:
Originally Posted by Justin Bonomo
We have AJ85, and only one of our suits isn't easily dominated. Sure, the BB will be coming along a lot of the time with trashy hands, but he's correct to do so. We might dominate one aspect of his hand, such as his diamond draw, but we will never just have him crushed. We're allowing him to make a correct call way too often.
If we had AQ84, then things would be a lot different, but I really don't think our hand is strong enough to encourage the BB to call getting 5.5-1 in a 3 way pot.
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I agree with Justin on the first part. Like I said, a big reason why I personally would rather 3bet over cold call is because...the hand isn't that good. Other than a miracle flop like 234 or ddd, I don't like my hand that much against 3 or 4 other people.
HU, especially in position, especially against a thinking player who I know is going to be raising preflop with more than just AA2x, I like my hand on a number of flops, and on a few that I don't, I'm going to like taking a strong bluff line because it's probable that he doesn't like his hand either (or, more accurately, he thinks that I like my hand more than I do).
Quote:
Originally Posted by Barry Greenstein
I don't claim to know what the cutoffs are, since it surely also depends on how our opponents play, but I doubt many of the three bettors would have played AQ84 any differently.
There is a tendency of the math crowd to cite preflop pot odds that aren't very relevant. The BB certainly doesn't get 5.5 to 1 odds here because the betting continues on, with the player often throwing good money after bad as he keeps justifying the decreasing (when you take into account all the money he has put into the pot on the hand) but still seemingly +EV odds he is getting. (He is often correct that calling has become +EV because of the initial -EV moves he made.)
Also, a mistake about odds is often made where getting good pot odds against one opponent may be bad odds having to beat two or three.
Barry
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I also agree with Barry in that I'm going to be 3betting AQ84 in this same spot as well, for the same reason. I have a hand that works both ways, but isn't huge in either.
I'm not sure where he's going with on the odds part, though. If I cold call and it folds to the BB, he is getting 5.5:1 odds on his call. Therefore, if he feels he has higher than 18% equity in the hand, he has to call. Against Barry's hand and Daniel's hand, the most random hand I could think of (KJ93 rainbow) has a 23.1% equity in the pot, preflop. I doubt we could find a hand that shouldn't call 1BB into a 5.5BB pot given this situation.
Also, with the description of the blinds, I'm lead to believe that they aren't the savviest of players. This means that there is a high likelyhood of them making the correct decision (calling one more bet) for the wrong reason (not because of odds or hand ranges or anything meta, but simply because it's...just one more bet).