Help me play the nut flush better

[Leviathan101]

This is at a home game. Villain is Flotsamfiend on pokerstars, and plays up to $25/$50 PLO online.

I'm pretty inexperienced at PLO high, probably one of my worst games.


4 handed, 10/25 dealer's choice, game is PLO.
Stacks
BTN (me): $15k
SB: $20k
BB (primary villain): $13k

CO folds, and I open A2c K9h to $100
SB calls, BB 3bets to $400, SB and I both call. SB is a competent PLO player.

Flop is Kd 6c 5c.

SB checks, BB bets $800. I raise to $3,500, SB tank folds, BB calls.

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What is our best option on the flop? We have excellent equity against everything except a set so i can't imagine raising is ever bad, but would we ever want to keep this multiway? Is my sizing ideal?
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Turn is the 4c. He checks, I decide to check behind.

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I thought there was a good chance by checking, he would valuebet or c/c a flush on the river where as he might not call a bet on the turn and/or river. I don't think he expects me to bet the turn with a set. I figure he might also attempt to bluff me off a set or two pair. However, I dont think there are a lot of hands he would need to bluff with, but I suppose he might turn AA into bluff, especially if he had the Kd in his hand. I assume betting the turn is standard, but I'm really not sure what the best option is here.
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River is the 6h

He checks again. We bet $5k. He calls.

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Thoughts on river sizing? Too small? Too big? part of why I picked this sizing is because I was planning to fold to a c/r, and wanted him to believe I would probably be going with it. Is betting the river at all too thin?



All thoughts would be appreciated.

[rrumsey]

lol double postaments, this is in the plo thread too.

[Leviathan101]

I'm trying to get opinions from a large variety of people

[thayden]

IMO I like everything up until the turn. I think a set or 2 pair is definatly in villains range as he calls our flop raise. If he does have a set letting him take a free card is bad when he only gives us action if he beats us. So I think in betting pot on the turn because then we are in a much easier spot then our villain is. Bet folding with half our stack in the middle blows and if we can get it in on the turn we have so an easy play on the river.

[a10fouru]

I like everything up to the turn. By checking behind you do two things: You allow a free card on the river to pair the board and put you in an awkward spot and you lose value. In PLO, you are always going for value on each street because the nuts can change on each street. If the river bricks for him, the you will get no more value for your hand and that is a missed street of value.

The river bet size is bad if he's a good PLO player. It is a perfect chance to bluff you off of your nut flush when the board pairs. But, I'll bet it saved you money....He had two pair on the flop...maybe a 65 in his hand and was happy to get a free river card. It also looks like you are afraid of the flush and don't want to bloat the pot on the turn. He may also put you on a KKxx hand...maybe suited to one of the K's of clubs. When the river pairs the board and you bet so small, he could feel you are value betting K's full and are beating his 6's full.

I think that you have to sometimes bet thin on the river in PLO..especially given that you checked the turn...he can also show up with a lower flush

[5carab]

Bet the f***ing turn, you have just semi-bluffed and hit your gin card... GET SOME VALUE! You will get action from w/e is calling a blank river here (so you get your one street) AND will avoid giving hands like a set a free river which will win you more money.

[CalPolyKid]

Originally Posted by a10fouru

When the river pairs the board and you bet so small...

He bet $5k into an $8k pot (and over a third of his stack); that doesn't seem unreasonably small to me... OP said that the reason he picked that bet size was because he believed, given the dynamics of the game up to that point, that it would make it appear to the villain that he was going with the hand although we know that with his actual hand he could b/f.

I assume since they are playing 4 handed in a home game that OP and the villain are reasonably familiar with each others' games. OP said that he doesn't think that the villain would call a bet on the turn but might bet the river with a smaller flush. Given these parameters, is betting the turn still the right play if we fold out everything we beat (sets, smaller flushes) and only bring along the, albeit rare, straight flushes? Is this one of those spots where betting is correct even though the only reason we are betting is for protection/capitalization of our equity?

[Barry Greenstein]

1. The initial opening raise was more than a pot-sized raise of 85. I assume you were playing in a game where the initial raise is allowed to be 100.

2. Although you'd expect he would have gotten all in on the flop with a set, you still have to ask yourself what you can get value from on the river if you check the turn. He should expect that you had a flush draw or a set. Trapping good hands in PLO is dangerous. It's much better to bet and balance that with bluffs/semibluffs in other situations.

3. If he had Aces and a smaller flush draw, or even any funky straight draw hand with smaller clubs, you may have lost your chance for value when you checked the turn and the board paired on the river. There was no longer anything he could beat.

4. I think the river bet is fine once you get there with this line you took. It seems that if he had anything that beats you, he would have gotten the money in on the flop or would have bet out on the river.

[Leviathan101]

#1, yea we round up to 4bb opens.

regarding #2, I understand what you're saying about balancing with bluffs and semibluffs, but being in a 3way 3bet pot, with these stacks, and this flop action, I can't really have air in my range on the turn anymore. Everything got there. Wraps hit a straight, flushes connected, and I suppose a set could be regarded as a semibluff. But overall in a spot like this I don't think my range can be balanced with bluffs, because I simply never have a hand to bluff with.

regarding #3
What about the times the board doesn't pair? Could this mean this was a better line? After all the board doesn't pair most of the time.
The Villian could definitely have a hand like KQT9 with clubs. If he has a king high flush, we are costing ourself money by not betting the turn, but what about against smaller flushes?

When he has say something like, 678T with like T7c or w/e. Does this hand call a turn bet? Does it call a river bet if the board doesn't pair? Does it valuebet the river itself?



I guess the most important question is, by slowplaying are we really making more money? With a SPR of slightly greater than 1, I think getting value immediately and protecting our hand could be the most important factors in the highest EV play, but if we are folding out hands on the turn that call a river bet, then I'd have to imagine checking is best.

[5carab]

Originally Posted by Leviathan101

#1, yea we round up to 4bb opens.

regarding #2, I understand what you're saying about balancing with bluffs and semibluffs, but being in a 3way 3bet pot, with these stacks, and this flop action, I can't really have air in my range on the turn anymore. Everything got there. Wraps hit a straight, flushes connected, and I suppose a set could be regarded as a semibluff. But overall in a spot like this I don't think my range can be balanced with bluffs, because I simply never have a hand to bluff with.

What about if you have something like two pair w/ the nut flush blocker?

Originally Posted by Leviathan101

I guess the most important question is, by slowplaying are we really making more money? With a SPR of slightly greater than 1, I think getting value immediately and protecting our hand could be the most important factors in the highest EV play, but if we are folding out hands on the turn that call a river bet, then I'd have to imagine checking is best.

Obviously you know him better than I do, but if you have reached the turn and have only a pot-sized bet left, it would probably be better to just get it in now because it will be really tough for him to fold a flush. If the board pairs he is more likely to get away from his hand (admittedly it usually won't pair, but then we probably gain little, just w/e he chooses to lead for). Perhaps your best line is bet small. This way you gain money from a small flush (roughly the same as his river lead I would think), make it REALLY tough for him to fold the river and perhaps induce a check/ shove from some hands which would obviously be awesome.