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| Open Discussion Talk about poker players, situations, and gossip |
09-28-2011, 02:06 AM
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Major Player
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Join Date: Jun 2010
Posts: 134
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More Full Tilt Fallout + Poker Refugees
Today on The Final Table poker radio show, we continued following the fallout of the Full Tilt Poker indictments, including: - the DOJ's warrant to seize the bank accounts of Full Tilt principals Howard Lederer, Chris Ferguson, Ray Bitar, and Rafe Furst;
- public statements from Furst;
- claims by attorneys for both Ferguson and Full Tilt that there was no "ponzi scheme";
- comments from Tom Dwan (one of Full Tilt's sponsored pros) who says the indictments are "good news";
- the Poker Players Alliance's attempts to get restitution for Full Tilt players;
- Epic Poker League stripping Lederer and Ferguson of their eligibility;
- Congressman Barney Frank saying he'll return Full Tilt's campaign contributions;
- the possible identity of the possible investor that could possibly save Full Tilt;
- several questions from our Twitter followers, too.
In our guest segment, we spoke with Kristin Wilson, who runs Poker Refugees, a service for Americans who want to move to another country so they can continue playing online poker legally. She explained which places are the easiest to move to, what the regulations are regarding establishing residency, how long it takes to get set up in a new home, and much more.
Listen, then click here to subscribe to these podcasts via iTunes!
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09-28-2011, 02:34 PM
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PokerRoad Emeritus
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Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Davis, Calif.
Posts: 8,722
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Final Table
[*]claims by attorneys for both Ferguson and Full Tilt that there was no "ponzi scheme";
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Haven't heard this episode yet, but...
For what it's worth, I am of the camp that doesn't consider Full Tilt to be a Ponzi scheme. In many ways, it had the force and effect of one; and from the standpoint of the players, it certainly resembles one right now. So as weird as it sounds, I gotta side with Full Tilt on that point.
Anyway, look forward to this episode.
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HUFF & STAPES NATION
This podcast has been seized by the FBI pursuant to an Arrest Warrant in Rem obtained by the U.S. Attorney's Office for the Southern District of New York and issued by the United States District Court for the Southern District of New York.
Check out Tyresias and Spartan in The Rabbit Hunt | Twitter
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09-28-2011, 04:52 PM
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Major Player
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Join Date: Jun 2010
Posts: 166
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The 6th Wilbury
Haven't heard this episode yet, but...
For what it's worth, I am of the camp that doesn't consider Full Tilt to be a Ponzi scheme. In many ways, it had the force and effect of one; and from the standpoint of the players, it certainly resembles one right now. So as weird as it sounds, I gotta side with Full Tilt on that point.
Anyway, look forward to this episode.
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pretty much right with you on this. Not saying it is any better or worse than a Ponzi scheme, just don't think it meets the definition.
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09-28-2011, 08:29 PM
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Major Player
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Join Date: Jun 2010
Posts: 134
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The 6th Wilbury
For what it's worth, I am of the camp that doesn't consider Full Tilt to be a Ponzi scheme. In many ways, it had the force and effect of one; and from the standpoint of the players, it certainly resembles one right now. So as weird as it sounds, I gotta side with Full Tilt on that point.
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That's one of the points we discussed on the show. Give it a listen, then let me know if you agree with what we said.
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09-29-2011, 10:38 PM
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Major Player
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Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Northern California
Posts: 185
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I'll give this a listen tonight, but I guess it doesn't matter if you had money on the site if it was a ponzi scheme or not.
That being said, I invest in lots of companies that are in debt much more than Full Tilt was, and even the DOJ's boss could be guilty of the same thing. Social Security would have problems with payouts if everyone needed it at once.
It also shows that the overhead costs to run a site are much greater than the revenues that everyone can imagine that the site is taking in. Their profit margin was close to negative, which is pretty crazy. Even with them taking most of the money, they still had issues with payments the entire time!
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Host of "The Sports Card Show" Podcast
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09-29-2011, 11:48 PM
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Moderator
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Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Richardson, Texas
Posts: 3,745
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Nice show. As soon as I heard the Ponzi opinion, I called BS on that opinion.
To tell the truth, someone collecting $1500 to help you move overseas is more of a Ponzi scheme. Feihua's Black Market Move Overseas Service is much, much cheaper at $1499 and they have much more experience concerning such a move.
Plus they don't limit themselves to offering only three countries, they are truly operating at a global level.
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The benefit of the doubt is a fundraiser someone needs to hold for me instead of something being on hold. In other words, I am nostalgic for an age yet to come.
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09-30-2011, 12:45 PM
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PokerRoad Emeritus
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Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Davis, Calif.
Posts: 8,722
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NorCal Sports
That being said, I invest in lots of companies that are in debt much more than Full Tilt was, and even the DOJ's boss could be guilty of the same thing. Social Security would have problems with payouts if everyone needed it at once.
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Social Security WILL have problems with payouts because soon MANY will need it at once.
As for the companies, I don't like using banks and/or investment opportunities to compare what happened here. I never deposited on Tilt thinking the money would or could be used to supply capital for the company. I imagine others didn't think so, either. So the "run on the bank" analogy fails when explaining what Tilt has done.
In some ways, it almost sounds ludicrous to make this comparison, but I sometimes think about the WSOP pools we ran here on PokerRoad when looking at Full Tilt's actions.
As some will remember, I collected all the buy-ins from the rest of the league, and I held them in my Full Tilt and PokerStars accounts. Some people paid on Stars, others on Tilt and I think one might have used PayPal. At no point did I even THINK about putting that money into play. If I had $700 on my Stars account, but $350 were from your buy-ins for our contest, then as far as I was concerned, I had $350. Any bankroll-management decisions would be based on the idea of having $350 (not that it matters, since I'm a BM nit). I kept track of how much of my online account balance was someone else's money, and considered it separate what what was playable to me.
Stars' policy was like mine, only multiply it by a million.
Tilt's policy would be as if I decided to use your buy-ins to enter some larger game that I otherwise wouldn't be able to afford. If I won, great for me AND I would still have all your money to give back to you when you came calling at the end of the year. If I lost, well, I have time to figure out how to get it back. Only multiply it by a million.
Why did I do this? Part of it was honesty, of course. Part of it was my being relatively risk-averse, sure. But a huge element of it was that I in no way wanted to violate your trust, for fear that I might not get to participate in our contests in the future. Full Tilt thought nothing about violating our trust, even though our trust was worth millions to them as a company. So not only are they dishonest, but they're also pretty damn stupid from a business standpoint.
__________________
HUFF & STAPES NATION
This podcast has been seized by the FBI pursuant to an Arrest Warrant in Rem obtained by the U.S. Attorney's Office for the Southern District of New York and issued by the United States District Court for the Southern District of New York.
Check out Tyresias and Spartan in The Rabbit Hunt | Twitter
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09-30-2011, 08:57 PM
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Moderator
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Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Richardson, Texas
Posts: 3,745
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I finally have a serious post that I do not think has been addressed:
Concerning the exodus of players from the US, has it been considered that taking $10,000 and more out of the US is not exactly free?
__________________
The benefit of the doubt is a fundraiser someone needs to hold for me instead of something being on hold. In other words, I am nostalgic for an age yet to come.
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10-01-2011, 01:36 AM
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PokerRoad Emeritus
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Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Davis, Calif.
Posts: 8,722
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I also have a serious post:
Is it wrong that I'm considering consulting Poker Refugees because Kristin sounds kinda hot?
__________________
HUFF & STAPES NATION
This podcast has been seized by the FBI pursuant to an Arrest Warrant in Rem obtained by the U.S. Attorney's Office for the Southern District of New York and issued by the United States District Court for the Southern District of New York.
Check out Tyresias and Spartan in The Rabbit Hunt | Twitter
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10-01-2011, 06:24 AM
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Moderator
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Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Richardson, Texas
Posts: 3,745
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The 6th Wilbury
I also have a serious post:
Is it wrong that I'm considering consulting Poker Refugees because Kristin sounds kinda hot?
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"Pictures" or "GTFO?" What should I do?
__________________
The benefit of the doubt is a fundraiser someone needs to hold for me instead of something being on hold. In other words, I am nostalgic for an age yet to come.
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