Cash game, 77 rivers' a set.

[Bryan Devonshire]

I know this isn't a high stakes hand, but all the bigger games sucked so I was playing this.

Bellagio 5-10, $1500 max buy-in. My image is somewhat loose. Three hands before this hand I opened UTG with TT to $40, checked three ways on a Qxx, bet $100 on a 9 turn and $190 on a brick river, called both times my hand is good.

I'm in the 4 seat, villain from the above hand moves to the 6 seat while I'm in the blinds.

I open the button to $40 w/77. Both blinds call, I cover, effective stacks are $1150.

Flop ($120) QTT rainbow. Check, check, I bet $100, fold, call. No reads.

Turn ($320) QTT, 9, completing the rainbow. Check, check.

River ($320) QTT, 9, 7. Villain bets $200, leaving $800 and small change behind. We?

Some more notes on villain - he's young, we don't know each other. Paul Smith and I have been talking shop back and forth across the table, both of us are drinking beer. He's a thinker, saying after my TT river value bet, "Nice hand, nice bet." He realized that I realized that he had a 9 and probably wouldn't fold it basically.

My first instinct was to flat, then my immediate next instinct was to shove and to shove quick like now now... but I waited an additional 25-30 seconds after that thought, mostly deliberating between raising to $400-500 and folding to a shove and shoving, but still thinking about flatting too.

Would love to hear some opinions from you NLHE cash studs.

[Bart]

Originally Posted by Bryan Devonshire

I know this isn't a high stakes hand, but all the bigger games sucked so I was playing this.

Bellagio 5-10, $1500 max buy-in. My image is somewhat loose. Three hands before this hand I opened UTG with TT to $40, checked three ways on a Qxx, bet $100 on a 9 turn and $190 on a brick river, called both times my hand is good.

I'm in the 4 seat, villain from the above hand moves to the 6 seat while I'm in the blinds.

I open the button to $40 w/77. Both blinds call, I cover, effective stacks are $1150.

Flop ($120) QTT rainbow. Check, check, I bet $100, fold, call. No reads.

Turn ($320) QTT, 9, completing the rainbow. Check, check.

River ($320) QTT, 9, 7. Villain bets $200, leaving $800 and small change behind. We?

Some more notes on villain - he's young, we don't know each other. Paul Smith and I have been talking shop back and forth across the table, both of us are drinking beer. He's a thinker, saying after my TT river value bet, "Nice hand, nice bet." He realized that I realized that he had a 9 and probably wouldn't fold it basically.

My first instinct was to flat, then my immediate next instinct was to shove and to shove quick like now now... but I waited an additional 25-30 seconds after that thought, mostly deliberating between raising to $400-500 and folding to a shove and shoving, but still thinking about flatting too.

Would love to hear some opinions from you NLHE cash studs.

Bryan,

I think that at this level and with the recent history that this is a pretty standard value raise. The thing that I find much easier about shorter stacked capped games is the ability to make somewhat thin value bets/raises without the danger of being 3 bet big. The amount of the raise is really player dependent. At 5-10 I have found that it is unlikely that the average player can fold a T or KJ in this spot even if your check back turn river raising line represents only a boat or air. Before a river raise here the pot is $720 and the villain has just about a pot sized bet left. If you shove when called you only need to be good here roughly 50% and normally I expect this to be the case.

If you are playing deeper the variables change. Let's say the game is 10-20 and let's multiple the stack sizes by 4 and the pot size by 2. Here the villain bets $400 into a $640 pot. Now you are dealing with a $1440 pot size and a $3200 stack. The question becomes here can you value raise small enough to get called by worse but fold to a 3 bet shove? If you raise it $1000 and he shoves the pot will lay you $5640-$2200 to call. If you are the type of player that can't fold with these odds than flatting and losing some value is probably a better play.

Bart

[Court]

5/10 is where I spend most of my time playing, and unless I have evidence to the otherwise I assume I am up against an average at best player that makes a lot of mistakes. That said, I would say in this spot KJ is a likely possibility along with any other pocket pair, AQ, and a whole slew of other hands that you are beating.

Some of the hands you are beating he will fold with, but people continue to surprise me with their willingness to call big bets on the river with a hand they are almost always going to be beat with.

I would move in. A player that will call a raise there will also likely call an all in so go ahead and get all you can. The times you happen to be beat here are heavily outweighed by the times someone calls off with KJ, Tx, random pair, and anything else they might find a reason to call with.

Against a guy that has already called me down with an underpair I am almost never flatting here without a serious read showing a lot of strength. Even then it would be tough because strength could just as easily mean KJ as it could a bigger full house.

-Court

[Barry Greenstein]

Bryan,

If you had flopped a full house, what would you have bet on the flop? The answer: less than $100.

A typical continuation bet against two players is double your initial opening. On a high paired board, sometimes you will bet less since it becomes one of those "they-will-come-if-they-have-it-but-fold-if-they-don't-no-matter-what-I-bet" scenarios. Some players with the betting lead will check when they flop a full house but against strong competition, two or three handed, you might feel you have to bet something so as not to telegraph your hand when you show strength later on.

What does this have to do with this hand? By betting $100 you announced that you were happy to take it down there. If your opponent has three tens or makes a straight, he will think he has the nuts. When you made a full house later in the hand, you didn't know if he was still working on the flop read that you don't have a full house.

I think if you had bet less on the flop, you could value raise (after he possibly bets out less than $200) on the river and be sure you won't be reraised with anything but a big full house. As it is, he may misjudge the strength of your hand. This forces you to move all-in on the river so you get the max when you have the best hand, since you will find a reason to call his reraise if you raise less.

Barry

[Bryan Devonshire]

^^^

for whatever it's worth, not really true imo, but I'm much more of a tourney donk than a cash game guy, esp when it comes to NLHE not something mix/limit. I've heard that one of my biggest leaks in NL cash game is betting tourney style, with most of my bets being 1/2 to 2/3 PSB. I've been told that I should make my cash game bets 3/4 to full PSB's, and in this case with these stacks, I'm pretty much betting 90-110 if I choose to bet. Is this a leak? Basically if I'm betting this flop I'm trying to build a pot and play for stacks, "protect" if you will a pair like this, or bluff a weakish hand. I'm never really betting any hand that has showdown value that isn't weak, such as Ax and esp AK, AJ, or bigger pairs that are less vulnerable to the free card like JJ, 99.

Thoughts, just, thoughts..

edit: also, is it fair to assume that a 5-10 player of this description is thinking on that level of bet sizes?

2nd, by betting less on the flop we allow more wiggle room on later streets, like if we bet $80 then there would be $280 in the pot, but wouldn't he still bet about $200? Also, are they ever bluff shoving in a capped game like this?

Bart's example would be a really really sick hand imo, being in this spot un-capped, and I think would be interesting discussion also.

[Barry Greenstein]

Originally Posted by Bryan Devonshire

also, is it fair to assume that a 5-10 player of this description is thinking on that level of bet sizes?

2nd, by betting less on the flop we allow more wiggle room on later streets, like if we bet $80 then there would be $280 in the pot, but wouldn't he still bet about $200? Also, are they ever bluff shoving in a capped game like this?

It is true that cash players make larger bets proportionately than tournament players because cash is typically deeper stacked. But tournaments have become so popular that those smaller bet sizes have permeated the cash games. Admittedly, my arguments would have made more sense if you and your opponent were deeper.

With regard to what a $5-$10 player would think, I can only call upon the wisdom of my friends who play predominantly on the Internet. Some have hyperbolized that online games are three orders of magnitude tougher than live games. Therefore they may feel that we should divide by 1000 and conclude that a $50-$100 live game is equivalent to a 5 cent-10 cent game online. Continuing that line of reasoning, your $5-$10 game gets reduced to a smaller stake game than exists online, and so the thought process of a $5-$10 live player is equivalent to an online player playing for play money!

Barry

[Jimmy Fricke]

I snap shove because he'll never think we have anything whatsoever and will therefore never fold a queen or the ten that he actually has.

[Isaac Haxton]

Definitely raise the river. I think raising is probably better than calling with AT or better here. Maybe not AT if he's the type of player who would fold AQ but call JT in this spot because he wouldn't want to lose all of his chips with one pair, but certainly any straight. He's a queen or a ten way more than he's anything else and he's probably a straight more than he's a boat. And no one ever checks back that turn with a made hand strong enough to now be raising the river, so he's probably putting you on 77/86/bluff. Whether you should jam or make some in-between raise size depends on your read of the guy and your image (its a lot easier to get called in this spot if its not your first river overbet shove), but I would usually jam.

About the flop, I don't really like betting 77 here and I agree with Barry about sizing. 100 is too big, 80 is on the big side of reasonable, and I like 70 or so best on this texture. This is not a situation where you want to be building a pot. Once you get action on a bet on this board, most hands are in pretty bad shape. Your semibluffs are mostly not very good. With the exception of AK, KJ, J9, anything that bet the flop and was hoping for a fold has very little chance of winning the pot once it gets called. And you need a ten or AQ/KQ to be able to bet the turn and river for value. If your opponents aren't especially loose blind defenders, especially given your pretty large preflop open, they are likely to connect with this board really well. All of this adds up to a situation where you should check back often and when you bet it should be with a strong range (good queens, tens, and straight draws) and not for much more than half-pot.

[Phil D'Auteuil]

always raise, sizing depends on player, against most I'd just shove and expect to get called by KJ a lot or JT/KT/AT

[Alex Kamberis]

Originally Posted by Phil D'Auteuil

always raise, sizing depends on player, against most I'd just shove and expect to get called by KJ a lot or JT/KT/AT

this.