Tough spots / mistakes(?) in Amsterdam Master Classics

[Sorel Mizzi]

Tournament: Amsterdam Master Classics
Buy in: 6300 Euro
Starting Chips: 12k
Level: 90 Minute Levels

This was one of those tournaments I felt I played extremely well and made very few mistakes... I'd like to discuss some of the hands I played where I was put in a tricky spot or where I felt that I played the hand less than perfect. Feel free to reply to as many or as few as you wish (the hands are in order from beginning to end);

Hand 1

This hand I'm certain I played worse than optimally and felt really silly after the hand, but I'm curious if anyone takes the same line I did.

Players in question: Since its the first level I don't have much information but UTG is a dutch guy that has open limped I'd say about 5/5 of the hands he's played. SB is a younger european, who seems like an above average TAG player.

Day 1
Blinds 25/50
10 handed

Hand: AcJc
Stack: 12500

UTG limps. I decide to limp behind in middle position with AJcc. SB (12kish) completes.

Flop is Kc9c5c. UTG leads for 150. I make it 550. SB makes it 1350. I call.

I like my play up till now so far.

Turn is a 2d.

SB fires 2400. At this point I think I should shove. I know he has a flush why not just shove now just in case a scare cards comes on the river and he slows down (paired board or club). Another arguement is that our hands are so polarized that maybe if I shove he will be able to get off a lower flush and I should just call the turn and bet the river for max value. I think shoving the turn is worlds better but I'm curious who thinks calling the turn and betting the river or shoving the river if he bets is the best play.


Hand 2

Players in question: Chip leader in Early/Mid position is a young european player. Havn't seen him play much but he seems like an aggressive player who knows what he's doing. He knows me from online and has respect for my game.

The next player is someone I have much more history with, David Kitai. He's a very good, crazy, preflop re-raising machine from France.

In this tournament he put me in almost the exact same spot that he put me in in Barcelona. The hand in Barcelona I remember like this. 200/400, I raised EP to 1200 with JJ got 3 callers and David Kitai reraised to 4800 from the SB. I had about 30k. I called and everyone else called. Flop came low cards and he bet strong into 3 people and I tank folded and he ended up getting it in vs AJ with his KQo. I know I played that hand bad too but that's another story. So I know he's capable of making really bold and aggressive preflop plays and I'm also confident he continuation bets about 90% of the time in reraised pots.

Other Info: New table, there were 36 players left and we redrew. This was probably the 2nd orbit of the table.

Day 3
Blinds 1k/2k 300 ante
9 handed

Hand: TxTx
Stack: 220k

I raise to 5500 +1 UTG. Early Mid chip leader calls (350k). David Kitai (200k) reraises from late position to 18k. I tank call. Chip leader insta calls after I call.

Flop comes down 7d8d2x

I check, CL checks, David Kitai fires out 28k. I know a lot of good live players would just call here but I hate calling without a plan, relying on my opponent to shut down when my opponent is fully capable of double barrelling the turn and putting me in a gross spot. Maybe I can call for value with the intention of check shoving any safe turn? Remember I still have a player who covers me behind me.

I like my call preflop since I have set equity and can likely win a huge pot if I hit. I think from this point on I can play the hand so many different ways but not 100% sure which way is best. I just havn't been in this spot enough times since online tournaments are a lot less deep and decisions are usually much easier.

Option 1: Lead out on the flop and re-evaluate after further action. *I like this option best

Option 2: Check/Call and re-evaluate the turn.

Option 3: Check/Fold

Option 4: Check/Raise all in... I was very tempted to do this.

On a side note.. how sure do I have to be that David Kitai is folding when I shove in order to make check shoving a good play? Is there a certain %? Often during hands, I come up with %'s in my head of what my opponent is most likely holding. For example, in this situation I was around 65% sure I had the best hand vs. David Kitai. Is that enough certainty to shove? I think the fact that the field was pretty soft at this point and there were a lot of great spots to accumulate chips should factor in as well. Maybe with that knowledge I should just fold preflop? Ich don't think so, but really curious to hear the different opinions about this hand since I'm pretty sure there will be lot's of different answers.

Hand 3

Day 2
Blinds 1.5k/3k 400 ante
8 handed

Hand: AxKx
Stack: 235k

Players in question: Middle position player is Jan Sorenson an older aggressive Danish player who I've seen make squeeze plays vs late position raise calls and one of the times ended up showing down A9o after a late position raise, button call, sb call he re-raised big, original raiser (pretty tight/bad) shoved and player in question called without necessarily being committed. Player in question seems pretty good and definitley wins at poker.

I raise UTG +1 to 8500 , Jan Sorenson (140k) calls in middle position.

Flop: Ah8x9x

I bet 14800. He thinks for about 15 seconds and calls.

Turn: 4h

I bet 42k he calls again with about 75k behind.. This time after about 20 seconds. At this point I put him on a very strong hand from the way he called.

River Td

I go all in and he calls with a set of 8's.

Is there anything I can do in this hand to lose less? I was so sure my opponent had a big hand from the way he was calling but I guess AQhh is a possiblity? I don't want to lose value against weaker hands by checking the river but I'm also not confident when I shove.


Hand 4 *Bustout hand

Day 3
Blinds 3k/6k 500 ante
8 handed

Hand: As8s
Stack: 205k

Player in question: Inexperienced 30ish yr old Dutch player who has been playing pretty tight. Open limps suited connectors and has a very tight reraising range. Don't think he's the type to ever get too out of line although I did pick him off on a small bluff on day 2 where I called his LP raise on the BB with A4o check check flop KT9, turn A, check call river blank check call. The type of player you want to be playing pots with.

Player in question (225k) raises to 18k on the button. I call.

Flop: Ac7xTc

Player bets 30k very quick, very strong and very triumphantly.

I go into the tank and weigh my options and decide to shove.

He calls with AQ and holds. Do you guys think that raise fold is ever a good play on this drawy of a board? What about just calling and seeing what he does on the turn? After the flop theres just so much in the pot. Approx 73k. Shoving and him folding would be over a 30% increase to my stack. Do I need to go broke in this spot?

All of your input and comments are greatly appreciated.. I will post what I did and the result of the rest of the hands after I get a few responses.


Sorel

[Barry Greenstein]

Hand 1:

You said you liked your raise on the flop, but that's because you got action. I'm not saying it was the wrong play, especially with your loose reputation, but I don't think you would be saying the same thing if both players folded.

You're probably right that raising is the best line on the turn, but most players are so hesitant to go broke this early it might not work, and there is always the chance that SB doesn't have the flush. He may be overplaying a set or two pair or even less since he is playing against Sorel Mizzi, and he may assume that Sorel Mizzi would have never raised with a flush on the flop.


Hand 2:

With regard to Option 1, you said you don't like to play without a plan, but this is what you'll be doing here if you bet out and get raised on the flop. The way you described David Katai he seems very capable of raising you when you have the best hand.

I don't see anything wrong with you just playing it for set value and folding on the flop. If you do something else, you may end up folding to a flush draw, or if you get all-in, you'll have to fade the draw or be drawing to your own two-outer. Also, you may be able to push David out of the hand, only to lose to a flopped set of the chip leader.

When the field is weak and you have 100BB, it's often prudent to play carefully against the dangerous players who can bust you, since you know you can keep chipping up against the weaker players.

If you think you can get away with the bet-out, then it's the best line. By "get away" I mean that you can get both opponents to let you have it when you have the best hand. If they have seen you slowplay Aces or Kings preflop in this spot, or if they have seen you bet out with sets before, it certainly makes this play more attractive.


Hand 3:

It's always sick when you have Ace-King and you flop a pair against a flopped set. You'll usually get nailed big time against a loose or aggressive opponent. Often, all you can hope for is to play the hand in a way that you would win a big pot if he didn't have you beat. Check-raising him all-in on the turn may have been a better way to play it. You may get some extra chips for free when he flopped a straight draw or some one pair hand.


Hand 4:

This is where you have to play poker, and live, it's very different than online. You can fold top pair on the flop against a weak player you have a good read on, but online you don't fold here. If you think his actions will be easy to interpret on the turn, and you really don't want to fold on the flop, you can call or make a small raise. You probably won't take these lines against stronger hard-to-read opponents, but against this guy where your shove will pretty much get called only when you're beat, it might be the cheapest way to find out which also allows you to win the pot most of the time when you flop the best hand.

Barry

[Alex Kamberis]

hand 1: shove turn, no one folds flushes, and i cant imagine him making that play on the flop with less than a flush (maybe set, but against a set i still think shoving the turn is your best option)

hand 2: i feel like the only reason you can call this preflop is because you have enough implied odds (especially if middle player comes along) that you can setmine. as played i either call or fold flop, absolutely never raise / get it in. i lean towards your 'option 2', but i think option 3 is second best. actually, i almost prefer 3. maybe im nittier than i thought.

hand 3: standard. based on board bricking out and the stack sizes in relation to the pot, i'm not sure what else you can do besides 3 barrell/get it in, like you did. i guess checking the turn is an option, but if he bets the turn you're probably forced to just shove at that point anyways, given that he'll only have about 3x behind any regular sized bet he makes. just a cooler imo.

hand 4: pretty much what barry said. i just call on the flop since you're basically bluffing if you shove the flop. there's some merit in protecting your hand, but i don't think that's enough justification to put in the rest of your stack with top pair no kicker here. i'd call the flop and eval the turn, most likely folding to another significant bet. it's rare that people 2-barrell on boards like this (a hi specifically)

[Ryan Daut]

hand 1: shove turn, flushes are the majority of his range and doubt he folds


hand 2: either lead flop fairly large, like 35kish or c/f. i feel like i get outplayed/spew when i check call, check pray.

if you lead, bet fold vs the chipleader, bet/react vs david. i dont think bet/fold is bad vs cl cause we should have sets/combo draws a fair amount, and bet/react isnt terrible vs david cause it puts him in an extremely tough spot, although we might get owned sometimes when he shoves and we make the wrong decision as barry said, but again we have hands we are never folding in our range as well so he has to take this into account and just make the proper decision based on everything going on when it comes back to you.

if i check im probably folding TT here as he can check through turn get there on river with overs, valuetown us in multiple ways, etc. never folding QQ+, not sure on JJ, and make sure to both have sets/draws when you check/lead. also could be a sexy lead with air as well.

hand 3: i think bet flop, c/r all in turn is best line. if you bet, bet, get to that river i feel sick and can see an argument for either shoving for value (if you think he might flat AQ/AJ on turn) or c/f if you think he will shove/fold those Ax hands on the turn thinking you might be barrelling a flush or straight draw.

hand 4: c/c flop. could donk into him assuming he might spaz raise you cause he assumes you would c/r an A or flush draw. i dont like c/r cause i dont expect him to be bet/calling worse very often (prob checks behind Tx, pocket pairs and weaker A)

[Todd Terry]

Hand 1: Ha, I disagree with everyone, I'd call the turn. I think your range for raising and calling a 3bet on the flop and then shoving over a lead on the turn is the nuts. Maybe someone will convince himself that you're a psycho and call, but I think you're getting more value out of a smaller flush by calling here.

Hand 2: Is just impossible from beginning to end, which demonstrates the power of the squeeze play in position when the money is deep. I don't think your stated rationale for calling pre is correct, given that Villain's squeezing range is wide, you won't necessarily win a huge pot if you hit -- you'd be getting much better implied odds against a nit who is likely to have an overpair if you flop a set (which is why you don't want to call 3bets OOP with KQs against someone like me with a wide 3betting range, to give a purely hypothetical example). On the flop, I think c/raising is the worst option, since it's likely to fold out all worse hands and get called by all better. IMO, this is a spot where you have to employ some live poker skills -- call the flop and try to soulread the turn. Game theoretically you could call or fold some % of the time on the flop, turn and river, but there probably are easier ways to gather chips than playing those type of guessing/leveling games against an aggro player OOP, in which case you could just fold the flop.

Hand 3: I remember a hand in the $5K 6-max last year where you 3bet pre and then fired 3 barrels on an A-high board, got tank called on all 3 streets, showed AK, and were good. That's the value of your image, but it's also going to create spots like this, where there is value to be had on the river because you're so aggro but you're going to be valuetowning yourself a fair amount of the time. I think the river's close between shoving and c/folding.

Hand 4: I've folded a paired A to a single flop bet when I knew a guy was strong, I've also talked myself into calling and regretted it. Trust your instincts and fold. If you don't fold, against a guy who seems straightforward, call/eval seems much better than shoving -- you're probably not going to get it in against worse and you can fold fairly comfortably to a second barrel (unlike in the TT hand against a tricky, aggro opponent).

[Barry Greenstein]

Some additional comments on Hand 1:

To Alex and Ryan: I agree that against a small flush we want to raise here before the board pairs or before another club comes off. However, you figure you'll usually get his money, even if you only call on the turn, but you'll also make a good score on other hands when he doesn't have the flush, but he bets on the river when he would have folded to a shove on the turn. (He may just be betting to get Sorel to fold, although good luck to anyone who thinks they can accomplish that in general!)

To Todd: I normally DO just call here, but I think the reason goes back to my cash game roots. One big difference between cash game play and tournament play is that in cash games you generally play many sessions with the same people. Because of that, you have plenty of opportunities to condition your opponents to your betting patterns and use it against them. I call with the nuts on the turn so they don't think they can keep firing barrels at me since there will be other situations where I'm trying to control the pot size and I will probably give up to a big bet on the river.

In tournaments, you don't play nearly as many hands against the same people, so you generally don't set things up. I forget this sometimes and I get them right where I want them just as the table breaks.

Barry

[Isaac Baron]

1) Shove, no doubt... you are playing in Europe and you have the nuts against someone who has shown an immense amount of strength, no brainer imo.

2)By far the toughest one imo. I could probably be persuaded into calling or folding, depending a lot on exactly how big of a monkey David is, and also how chip leader plays.

3) Pretty coolerish, I think I like the line you took, rather than c/r the turn all in, against a thinking player who probably assumes you are even crazier than you are, and will expect you to be bluffing here a fair amount of the time.

4) Like pretty much everyone said, call the flop and reevaluate the turn, and most likely fold to more action on the turn unless you pick up a bet-sizing or physical tell.

[Sorel Mizzi]

Okay so results:

First hand I just called and he check folded to a 4th club on the river.

Second hand I check/folded


I'm still curious if any of you use the same method as I do occasionally by giving %'s to different possibilities and making decisions based on that %.... I think the second hand is the most interesting and the toughest spot by far.

As a %, how sure do I have to be that I have the best hand vs. David Kitai in order to continue in the hand?

I still think betting out the flop is a great line here, even against an aggressive opponent. If he's good, which I think he is, he will realize that my preflop calling range includes AA and KK... and with the stacks the way they were, if I lead out and he raises, he's committing almost half his stack. If he floats my lead, I would have to give him less credit for an overpair on that drawwy of a board and would probably end up check raising him all in on the turn... So I think leading out with any 2 as a bluff here is a good line as well. I feel like if I just check call, theres a good chance that a) an overcard comes on the turn that hits him b) an overcard comes on the turn that he tries to represent or c) he continues to rep a higher overpair regardless of the turn.... by leading out on the flop I think I'm putting him in a really tough spot and am able to define his hand a large % of the time without getting owned.

[Sorel Mizzi]

With hand 3... does anyone think check/fold river is ever a good play? AQ is never shoving the river and neither are any draws. THis might seem ridiculously exploitable, but what about betting 15k-20k on the river and folding to a shove?? I think a lot of players just call there with a set of 8's anyway... I dunno, I just feel sick about the hand because it didn't feel right... It just felt like he was so strong and had AK crushed... I think most players make a decision with a worse Ace on the turn (shove or fold) at least I think this player would... his call on the turn was just so suspect and the way he put his chips in I felt I was beat...

[Barry Greenstein]

Originally Posted by Sorel Mizzi

With hand 3... does anyone think check/fold river is ever a good play? AQ is never shoving the river and neither are any draws. THis might seem ridiculously exploitable, but what about betting 15k-20k on the river and folding to a shove?? I think a lot of players just call there with a set of 8's anyway... I dunno, I just feel sick about the hand because it didn't feel right... It just felt like he was so strong and had AK crushed... I think most players make a decision with a worse Ace on the turn (shove or fold) at least I think this player would... his call on the turn was just so suspect and the way he put his chips in I felt I was beat...

Obviously, you can give up anytime you think you're beat. In tournaments against a guy like Jan, you usually feel you haven't had enough evidence of how he plays to make that good laydown.

Also, it was obvious that you posted Hand 1 because something bad happened on the river. Did the guy show his small flush when he folded?

Barry