Limit Hand, How do you play it?

[Brandon Adams]

So I gambled and took a shot at this 1k-2k limit game with Mark Seif. I ended 20k winner, but limit pros I know are in general agreement that I play bad (=too tight). I played for probably seven hours total, over three days.

The lineup when I was in the game was: three high stakes regs (varied which ones), who presumably play very well; me; BoostedJ, who has a history in limit but is probably significantly worse that the top guys; and Seif. Seif does some things that are just obviously atrocious. For example, in one hand the UTG player raised, I re-reraised UTG+2, and he cold-called with KoQo from the SB. He raises UTG and UTG+1 with garbage and generally plays too loose. My intuition suggested that my tight style should work well in this environment.

Last night, Ivey was in the game with me for the first time. He presumably doesn't know how tight I am in limit. Perhaps he has a general image of me as weak-tight in limit games.

What the hell do I do in a spot like this?

Full Tilt Poker Game #9064817834: Table Jute (6 max) - $1000/$2000 - Limit Hold'em - 20:55:02 ET - 2008/11/19
Seat 1: Brandon Adams ($18,500)
Seat 2: Buster Love ($116,584.50)
Seat 3: vlindermes ($112,471.50)
Seat 4: TonyBliar ($90,494)
Seat 5: Boosted J ($48,979)
Seat 6: Phil Ivey ($48,494)
vlindermes posts the small blind of $500
TonyBliar posts the big blind of $1,000
The button is in seat #2
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to Brandon Adams [Jd Ad]
Boosted J folds
Phil Ivey has 15 seconds left to act
Phil Ivey raises to $2,000
Brandon Adams raises to $3,000
Buster Love folds
vlindermes folds
TonyBliar folds
Phil Ivey raises to $4,000
Brandon Adams calls $1,000
*** FLOP *** [8s 3s Qs]
Phil Ivey bets $1,000
Brandon Adams calls $1,000
*** TURN *** [8s 3s Qs] [2c]
Phil Ivey bets $2,000
Brandon Adams folds
Uncalled bet of $2,000 returned to Phil Ivey
Phil Ivey mucks
Phil Ivey wins the pot ($11,497)
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot $11,500 | Rake $3
Board: [8s 3s Qs 2c]
Seat 1: Brandon Adams folded on the Turn
Seat 2: Buster Love (button) didn't bet (folded)
Seat 3: vlindermes (small blind) folded before the Flop
Seat 4: TonyBliar (big blind) folded before the Flop
Seat 5: Boosted J didn't bet (folded)
Seat 6: Phil Ivey collected ($11,497), mucked

Ivey just goes around four-betting all over the place. Frankly I have no idea what's going on when he's at the table.

Note that there is a four-bet cap on FT.

On the turn, given the available info, what is my best option:
1) fold
2) blindly call turn and river
3) raise turn, give up hand to any further action

Brandon

[Chris Vitch]

Fwiw I feel you are overthinking this one, the flop texture is just awful for your hand. It's one of those flops where I'd almost want to just fold immediately, then I'd remember I'm getting 10:1 and who am I kidding and peel.

It would help to have a bit more of an idea of Ivey's capping range, you said he'd been doing it a lot but knowing what hands he had capped and shown down, or just the frequency of his capping would add some info. Here are a few stoves vs. a couple different ranges:

Board: Qs 8s 3s 2c
Dead:

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 36.642% 34.88% 01.76% 3131 158.00 { AdJd }
Hand 1: 63.358% 61.60% 01.76% 5529 158.00 { 66+, A4s+, K7s+, Q9s+, J9s+, T9s, A9o+, KTo+, QTo+, JTo }

That one is vs top 20%, so I assumed he's basically capping any hand he is open raising and barreling. If that's true, it looks like a pretty easy call down, though there might be some river cards where its close...

Board: Qs 8s 3s 2c Ts
Dead:

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 13.661% 12.57% 01.09% 23 2.00 { AdJd }
Hand 1: 86.339% 85.25% 01.09% 156 2.00 { 66+, A4s+, K8s+, Q9s+, J9s+, T9s, A9o+, KTo+, QTo+, JTo }

That's about the worst river card I could think of and if he barrels his full range it looks like a close call at 8.75:1.

All that said, here's a much more typical capping range:

Board: Qs 8s 3s 2c
Dead:

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 09.280% 07.61% 01.67% 201 44.00 { AdJd }
Hand 1: 90.720% 89.05% 01.67% 2351 44.00 { 88+, ATs+, KQs, AQo+ }

You are completely crushed by this one and its an easy turn fold.

So the turn call/fold is going to depend a ton on your thoughts on his preflop capping range, the only option I hate is #3, raising here represents nothing except possibly AQ/KQ depending on how you would play those and I'm not so sure you would play them this way (offhand I'd guess you might just call down but don't really know).

[Barry Greenstein]

I wouldn't call on the flop. Phil is obviously a great head up player, but you can get the best of him sometimes in full games when he is a too loose-aggressive. Calling him with no pair and no draw on a three flush board is not the right way to do it.

Chris' discussion about 10:1 odds doesn't tell the whole story if we are going to fold one the turn when we don't hit one of our 6 pairing cards (and 2 of them put up a four-flush against us). I admit we would call and take 10:1 if the betting stopped after the flop.

Heads up, Phil may force you to call him down, but in a full game you can wait for better hand/flop combinations.

Barry

P.S. A lot of people appreciate Chris Vitch taking on all the limit hold'em questions. He certainly seems to be our resident expert on the game.

[Bryan Devonshire]

I fold the flop. I'm a nit though.

Good post Chris.

[Aaron Bartley]

If you are going to call the flop, you might as well raise the flop.

Obviously this is all super table-dependent, as the optimal play is going to be based on what Ivey thinks of your game, and what he thinks you think about his game.

If he thinks you are a tight, fairly straightforward player, he'd have to give you credit for a hand and fold a bunch of hands that he would normally fire with on the turn (and that have you beat).

Personally, I'm not a big fan of vanilla HHs like this, because in poker, and in these high stakes games specifically, the best moves are based solely on intangibles that only the player at the table can judge (although, for the record, I'm a big Brandon Adams fan). If he had only seen you play tight and show down winners/correctly played hands, then I'd say raise the flop, call a 3bet if he makes one, and either bet or raise the turn.

[Daniel Negreanu]

I'm not calling on that flop, it's pretty awful for you so even against a totally random hand you can't like. The only real reason to call that flop is if you plan on outplaying him on the turn, but since you have nothing, and Ivey isn't a pushover, I think folding, despite the great price is by far the best play. If I called the flop and he fired again, I'm certainly not calling.