BBs versus M

[Steve Brecher]

I notice that almost everyone specifies stack sizes as a multiple of the big blind. I think in terms of M, the multiple of the initial pot, including antes if any. Isn't M more accurate as an indication of the relative stakes?

[Barry Greenstein]

Originally Posted by Steve Brecher

I notice that almost everyone specifies stack sizes as a multiple of the big blind. I think in terms of M, the multiple of the initial pot, including antes if any. Isn't M more accurate as an indication of the relative stakes?

Using M falls into the category of being precise for no reason. Betting starts out in multiples of the big blind, and we can shade things (hands or betting amounts) if the structure is looser or tighter or as a function of how deep the stacks are in terms of Big Blinds!

M is cute and was a good read in Harrington's book, but it's not for seasoned players. Paul Magriel was the one who introduced the concept to Harrington, by the way.

Barry

[Bryan Devonshire]

What Barry said about bb's, but I def. use the concept of m for open shove ranges. Higher relative ante = more hands when in the 10-13bb range should be open shipped imo.

[Isaac Haxton]

Originally Posted by Bryan Devonshire

What Barry said about bb's, but I def. use the concept of m for open shove ranges. Higher relative ante = more hands when in the 10-13bb range should be open shipped imo.

Ya I agree. If you're gonna memorizes shoving charts, thinking in M is the way to go. But when talking about deepstacked situations, especially if you're used to thinking about cash games, working in BBs is just easier and more natural.

[Jonathan Little]

Ive never thought in terms of M although I know a few people that do.

[Barry Greenstein]

Originally Posted by Isaac Haxton

Ya I agree. If you're gonna memorizes shoving charts, thinking in M is the way to go. But when talking about deepstacked situations, especially if you're used to thinking about cash games, working in BBs is just easier and more natural.

The more I think about it, M is an inferior way to go. By combining antes and blinds you lose some of the information. Look at the hand I played against Todd Terry that we just discussed where I had 25 BB. It may be relevant that the ante was 100 for 600-1200 blinds, which is a tight structure (1/4 ratio is a typical cutoff between loose and tight structure in tournaments). If the structure is tighter, my opening range on the button will be narrower. Talking about multiples of Big Blinds and structure gives you a clearer picture than talking about my M.

Barry

[Justin Bonomo]

Convenience: # of BB's obviously wins.

Accuracy: any system that combines antes and BB's into the same formula can't be as accurate as one that looks at antes and BB's separately.

What's the upside to using M?

I think it's only good for amateur players that don't have a good feel for fluctuating stack sizes and need some kind of chart to estimate their "tournament desperation".

[Todd Terry]

At the table I think in terms of both. Various books and charts that I've studied use M, so that's why it's in my head, I guess. I think both are relevant to most short-stack decisions.

And Barry, if the 20 minutes after we played that hand was you playing with a "narrower" opening range, you must have really been getting hit by the deck.

[Barry Greenstein]

Originally Posted by Todd Terry

At the table I think in terms of both. Various books and charts that I've studied use M, so that's why it's in my head, I guess. I think both are relevant to most short-stack decisions.

And Barry, if the 20 minutes after we played that hand was you playing with a "narrower" opening range, you must have really been getting hit by the deck.

That is one of the factors. I adjust depending on how my opponents are playing and on my feel for whether they are staying out of my way and letting me run over them. It helps if I can get the benefit of the big blind missing a clear shove when I have only 25 big blinds!

Barry

[Bryan Devonshire]

Originally Posted by Barry Greenstein

It helps if I can get the benefit of the big blind to missing a clear shove when I have only 25 big blinds!

Barry

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