Hand from TODAY'S 5k at Bellagio vs. Roothlus...

[Seebs]

Yes, it's from today. Yes, I am on dinner break. Yes, I am twisted. Let's move on...

I started this hand with roughly 21k in chips, and blinds were 300-600 with an ante of 50. I brought it in two spots off the button with AK, and made it 1800 to go. The somewhat live player on the button then made it 5000 straight pretty quickly. He is a first level player and I have played with him quite a bit over these Bellagio events, and I know is going to call a shove with AJ or better...so pretty obvious shove for me here. He had about 45-50k in chips, so even more likely he will call weaker as he has the chips to do so.

However, before it gets back to me Adam "Roothlus" Levy ships it on in there for just a shade over 19k in chips. Pretty sick spot, yeah? I pretty much knew that I was folding here as I know that Adam would never shove here with AQ so I know he either has a pair (10's-Q's) or perhaps AK and we are chopping. Basically I just didn't want to race for my tournament right there and then when I wasn't the one picking up the fold equity as well.

I thought it was a hem and haw fold, but still a pretty obvious one given that Roothlus was the pusher. He and I chatted a bit on the way out of the Fontana though and he seemed to strongly think that this was a definite call by me, especially considering that I was suited. I still feel that it's a gross fold, but a fold nonetheless, despite the obvious dead money in the pot.

Thoughts, my people?

Word. Holla.
J

[Paul Smith]

We need more information on the button. Looks like an easy call on the surface, though, unless button is a pretty big nit that never 3bets without a huge hand. It's also a pretty nice time of the tournament to double up to a very workable stack that will give you a lot of options.

[Paul Smith]

Also, your read on button is that he'll call a shove with AJ, but you don't expect Adam to have AQ in his range? That seems incongruent. I mean, Adam's looking at an LP raise and a button 3bet in front of him. He'd have to have some nittish reads to fold AQ.

[Jimmy Fricke]

It really depends on past history with the button. Had he been 3betting a decent amount or was this one of the first ones you saw? Unless he'd shown down a few 3bets with not so great hands then I really really doubt AJ is in his range, especially with this bet sizing. It's either a really marginal hand like 77 or AJ or a really tight range. Almost no one would make this raise size with AQ or a hand like TT or JJ.

Roothlus could MAYBE be shoving here with AQ or TT or worse if the guy's 3betting wide but he probably isn't so his range being JJ+ and AK is probably more accurate.

If the guy's 3betting a decent amount, then yes, easy shove. But I think if you believe the guy's 3betting range to be anything decent then I fold. I think he shows up with JJ+ here wayyyyy more than you'd think.

[Amit Makhija]

Id hate life + put it in. Theres a good amount of dead money in the pot, rooth is not folding TT here, and rooth is a very good player capable of reading situations so there is a non 0% chance hes light here and can have AQ or worse. Given the dynamics I dont think you can justify a fold, but I really wish villain was someone other than rooth because he shows up with a big hand more often then most online guys in these spots. In these relatively quick structured prelims I dont think you can justify passing up an opportunity like this to accumulate chips and leverage the field, there may more merit to a fold here in a major.

[Barry Greenstein]

These situations are very personal. I remember a hand a few years ago where I held AQ offsuit in the blind. Amir Vahedi and I had just arrived from the same broken table to this one and he had been playing pretty loose as usual. Three hands in, Amir opens with a raise and a 25-year old player moves in on the button. I had them both covered (which is also important) and all I wanted to do was ask the kid if he knew Amir. It was only a year after Amir had been shown going out at the WSOP Main event final table on an outrageous bluff.

I decided it was unethical to ask that question in a three-handed pot. I looked the kid over and he looked poker savvy enough that I called based purely on my decision that he must watch poker on TV, an easier read now than it was in 2004. When Amir folded, I said wait, "I want to ask you if you know Amir." At first he didn't seem to understand what I meant and I showed my hand and he sheepishly tabled his A-10 offsuit. I said, "I know the answer now." He lamented, "Ya, I've played with him before."

In the situation with Joey, if Adam has reason to believe the other guy may be making a play (other guy views Joey as a LAG or he three bets too much), then Joey should call. If tighter players were involved (Joey and especially the other guy) it would be right to fold on the same action.

Barry

[Justin Bonomo]

Pretty hard for us to figure out Roothlus's 4 betting range without having any information on the 3 better.

As others have said, if he's 3-betting wide, then Roothlus is shoving AQ and you need to call.

If he's a nit, and Roothlus is onto this, then fold away.

[Adam Levy]

Originally Posted by Justin Bonomo

Pretty hard for us to figure out Roothlus's 4 betting range without having any information on the 3 better.

As others have said, if he's 3-betting wide, then Roothlus is shoving AQ and you need to call.

If he's a nit, and Roothlus is onto this, then fold away.

Dude is reeeeally bad. Limping in mid pos with J6dd, raising a lot of pots, and seems like the type of guy who would overplay certain hands (i.e. AQ or KQs). I played a pot with him where he was the 2nd limper in mid pos at 200/400. I raised the button to 2k with 99. First limper folds, he calls. Flop 1044cc. I bet 2800 he thinks for 10 seconds and calls. Turn is 4. Quick checks by both. River is a non-club Jack. He checks quickly, I thin-value for 3500 thinking he has a mid-pair and wont fold. He calls with 107hh. This is what we are dealing with.

While he will be reraising hands that HE thinks are good, this guy does not have the capability to reraise light preflop. So, my 4betting range is never light here but that doesn't mean I'm not shoving 1010 here or AQs if I think he thinks AJ, AQ, KQs, 99 are "great hands".

[Todd Terry]

I think this is a fold based on the little info we have on the 3bettor. A random live player is not going to be 3betting very light here, and I agree with Jimmy that the raise size would seem to be indicative of a large hand (although it also could be indicative of the guy just grabbing a 5K chip which happened to be on the top of his stack). Which makes Adam's range fairly tight. One thing to remember is the card removal effects of the 3bettor's range are going to affect your equity against Roothlus -- the 3bettor is more likely than not to have at least one A or K in his hand.

[Daniel Negreanu]

I would have folded the AK rather quickly and lost 1400 instead of 1800 on the hand. If all I can really hope for is Adam having AQ with the combination of the other guy not having a pair, or folding a pair, than I'm certain I can find a better spot to get my chips in.

The other major difference in my tournament approach is that if Adam folded, I would NOT have shoved against the button if he is calling me with his entire range. If there is no fold equity pre-flop than I think it is ALWAYS, and I mean ALWAYS better for a good player to see a flop first before committing his whole stack. If the flop comes really, really ugly, I can save my stack and still have 16k or so to play with. Or, I could sem-bluff a flop with two diamonds on it. Also against certain players, and I made this exact play in Foxwoods recently, I can get my opponent to fold AK.

As a general rule, if you get raised AND re-raised pre-flop then you can safely fold AK almost every time, unless you are extremely short on chips in which case you probably should have already put your whole stack in.