2-7 TD 500-1000 Hand at Commerce

[Hernan Salazar]

Yesterday we were playing a mixed of Holdem and 2-7 TD 500-1000 at Commerce and the following very interesting hand came. I asked a friend of mine how he would have played this hand and he told me a very different way, so I want you to think about this hand and select the best way.

A weak player raises on the CO and David Baker 3 bet on The B, I call on the SB with:

2 3 4 so I draw 2, weak player 2 and DB 1. I don't improve. DB bets and both players called. Now the second draw is 2-1-1 and Bingo I get 5 and 7 for the wheel. There are 3 ways to play at this point:

a) Bet out of position into 2 guys drawing 1

b) Check with the intention of raising

c) Check with the intention of just calling

There is no risk that the round is check around because if weak player checks, DB won't allow me to draw 2 for free again. What alternative you choose and why?

I will continue with the hand after I get some responses.

[Aaron Jones]

I would lead because of relative position. I would imagine if the weak player improved at all he'd draw 1 drawing dead, and he might even draw 2 again.

I don't like check- call because you're going to have to check- call and pat and I doubt Baker will bluff or value bet very thin on the end, and I don't like check- raise because it shuts out the weak player. Additionally, if you coolered Baker and he made a very good second best hand you might be able to get more than 1 bet in on the turn.

To the best of my knowledge, I have never played a hand of 2-7 TD or any limit game for real money in my life.

[Bryan Devonshire]

I like a check raise. The player in the middle will call often enough either pat or drawing, and since it looks like you're trying to shut out the middle player, and I feel like DB will 3 bet his sevens and maybe even #5? I think that a lead/3-bet is stronger and a little easier to play against (however if there is reasonable chance that it checks through then I think we must bet).

[Chris Vitch]

Hi Hernan,

I strongly agree with Devo here, this is a spot where I'd basically be checking blind, a bet into two guys would be unnatural and show tremendous strength, enough that I think David Baker could just lose the minimum with a number 4 or worse. The CR can easily look like any marginal pat hand and get 3 bet or coldcalled lightly.

Aaron, wanted to give my opinion on a couple assumptions / ideas you made - if we did check/call, DB will definitely value bet thinly, as our most likely hand would be some sort of unbreakable marginal pat hand like 34678 or so. Also if we end up CRing and the bad player coldcalls, DB should probably easily reraise with number 6 or better, so if we did cooler him I feel we get at least 3 bets here and maybe 4 with that line, whereas when we lead out we get 1 bb if he plays expertly against us and correctly reads us as strong, and the same 3 bb if we get the chance to bet / 3 bet.

[Bryan Devonshire]

Wow u think DB is #6+ to three ball? My gut said #5+ but then I felt that would be loose... I'm super rough on fundamentals in deuce and find it interesting (but makes sense) to 3-bet #6. Anything more on that?

[Hernan Salazar]

There is some really bad strategy advice being given in the red pro forum for this post. I think the idea of a restricted access forum is to enforce a higher standard of strategy discussion. Just because you are a professional player and have been given access doesn't mean you are qualified to respond to any post you feel like. I think Aaron Jones posts would be compared to a professional basketball player responding to a golf question on a professional-athletes only forum.
Anyways.. Obviously Hernan is in the bittersweet position of 2 drawing a wheel in a multiway pot with a very little chance of actually getting 2 players to continue. I know that Hernans image is pretty tight/solid and a bet/3 bet from him is going to look exactly like #5 or better. Therefore a check raise is best, even tho we are almost always shutting out the third player. What you guys seemed to miss in the RP thread is that this spot occurs all the time, and as Hernan said, DB is betting here 100% of the time, this causes players to check raise with sometimes as little as a made Jack (or a snow for that matter). Just about any player in a game this big is check raising this spot with Ts and 9s consistently. Therefore DB is going to be 3 betting a ton more hands than #6+ for value or as a semi-bluff to try to get Hernan to break what could very well be a 97532 type of hand. Even against a solid player who DB knows isnt going to have 108765 here. Therefore c/r is best and it gives you the best shot at winning a big pot.

Edit: Not to mention at least some of the time weak player makes a hand and bets, and DB either calls or raises before action comes back to us. This makes c/r that much better.

Donkstrike



I'm very glad that one of the players I respect most, Donkstrike, gives his opinion. Very soon I will continue with the hand and I will have to make another decision. As he said this is a common situation for 2-7 players and the reason I post this hand is because I find it very instructive for people with less experience in the game.

Hernan

[Chris Vitch]

Donkstrike is too nice of a friend to bash me for my first post, but re-reading I realized I used some poor word choice that makes me sound pretty weak tight compared to his correct assertion that DB *should* reraise with a lot of hands to either get value vs our pretty wide CR range or to potentially induce a break. What I probably should have said is what I perceive DB *will* do in that situation, having played live 2-7 with him and stereotyping him a bit as a "live player" who usually have a pretty tight range when big bets start flying into the pot. I would expect him to reraise #6 or better but perhaps nothing worse.

Also when I said if we just called and patted that our most likely hand would be around 34678, I should have said that's what DB will perceive our hand to be because that's what a lot of players will have when they make that play. We should definitely be CRing with that and a lot of other worse hands as Donkstrike correctly points out.

Curious for future decisions, I can't really see what would be eventful so I'm guessing the 3rd player decided to donk out and DB raised?

[Hernan Salazar]

Originally Posted by Hernan Salazar

Yesterday we were playing a mixed of Holdem and 2-7 TD 500-1000 at Commerce and the following very interesting hand came. I asked a friend of mine how he would have played this hand and he told me a very different way, so I want you to think about this hand and select the best way.

A weak player raises on the CO and David Baker 3 bet on The B, I call on the SB with:

2 3 4 so I draw 2, weak player 2 and DB 1. I don't improve. DB bets and both players called. Now the second draw is 2-1-1 and Bingo I get 5 and 7 for the wheel. There are 3 ways to play at this point:

a) Bet out of position into 2 guys drawing 1

b) Check with the intention of raising

c) Check with the intention of just calling

There is no risk that the round is check around because if weak player checks, DB won't allow me to draw 2 for free again. What alternative you choose and why?

After reading all the analisis I think the best choice is b) but during the game and probably under the emotion of getting the two perfect cards I decided for c) . Now the last draw goes Pat, 1, 1 and my opponets looked confused. Now what should I do?

a) bet

b) check again

[Barry Greenstein]

Donkstrike was a little harsh. It is clear that Devo and Aaron don't play this game for high stakes, but as long as they mention it, there is a chance they will provide an interesting point that transfers over from other forms of poker, or they may mention something that we can respond to and clarify misconceptions.

I always check-raise here because, as Donkstrike said, I have to balance against the times I have nines and bluffs. Hernan is much more solid than I am, so any time he puts in a raise it scares people. I still think he should check-raise, but he won't get the action I will because he doesn't do it with enough bad hands.

But once you call, you should check because you are Hernan and betting here looks like a wheel. I wouldn't raise you with number 2. It may even go bet, raise after you, if you check.

Barry

[David "Not Bakes" Baker]

Although you can make a case for leading or chk calling, I believe chk raising is the correct play and I do not think it is even close. Here are the possible outcomes by chk raising....

1) George (the player in the middle) takes 2 to the face and draws 1 or makes it 3 bets trying to protect a made hand and I either call the additional bet or put in a 3rd or 4th raise trying to get value out of a 7 or trying to get you or George to break. This gives you a chance at winning a huge pot.

2) George folds and I 3 bet any 7 for value or any 9 or T to try to make you break or see how strong you are...You now get 4 bets in with 1 draw to come with me dead to a chop.

You must play this hand strong so in the future when you chk raise other hands you will get your desired result of your opponent either breaking or leting you know you need to break.

2 to 7 triple draw isnt like hold em omaha where if you chk raise the turn your opponent will fold if he feels his hand is no good (unless I had an unbreakable hand).....All of my actions to this point should have led you to believe I was drawing at a 7 and would not be releasing my hand at your chk raise.

If you dont chk raise it is to not lose George, but if you were paying attention you would know he was buried and not going to give up a chance at winning a big pot if he could and would most likely take 2 to the face with as bad as an 8 draw. He is an amateur that doesnt want to be pushed around, so I think in all likelihood he calls.

If you lead you are prob going to just get called and not win a big pot and if you chk call you never give me a chance to put in a lot of action. There is only one way to win a huge pot and it is chk raising....This particular time you may lose a bet, but if this situation arises multiple times, you will gain more bets than the one you may lose by driving out George this one time.

David Baker