Interesting end to a hand.. guy mucks after I show ten high.. and then:

Matt Vengrin · #1 (**permalink**) 01-20-2009, 08:08 AM

Aussie Millions, 150/300 blinds.

Limp from 4th position, limp from 5th position and I check in the BB we go three handed to the flop.

I have T7 off.

Flop: 3 6 4, rainbow. I check, and its checked around.

Turn: 8d putting a flush draw on the board, now ive got a double gutshot so I lead for 700 into a pot of 1050.
The first limper cold calls, and the second limper folds.

River: 6, pairing the board. I decide to give up and he checks behind as well. I assume I am beat here 95% of the time, as the only hands that call me on the turn that I beat are generally pretty much only 59.

Anyways, I go to muck.. im like your good, almost throw my hand into the muck so he will just show me for information, but he neglects to flip it over so I turn my hand over. He slowly pushes his hand into the muck, his 2 cards are on the fringe of the muck but definately in it.

Anyways, he finally sees my hand and keeps saying he had a three, and that he thought I had mucked.

My question here is... is it unethical to take the pot if his hand is somewhat visible in the muck?

I waited for a floor to decide because I did not want to seem like a ****, the floor ruled the pot must be awarded to the hand thats shown down, so I got the pot. I am curious what you guys would do in that spot, and whats the right way to handle it.

-Matt "Plattsburgh" Vengrin

Barry Greenstein · #2 (**permalink**) 01-20-2009, 08:31 AM

Hopefully Matt Savage will answer in the Shadow Forum. They way tournament directors have been doing things in the States, they award the pot to the best hand, as long as there is no doubt which cards are your opponent's, even if they touched the muck.

I have always felt that you are forced to go with the ruling in a tournament, even if you would like to be a nice guy about it and give the pot away. The only way I might argue is if I had induced they guy to screw up, for example, by saying "the nuts" as a joke.

Barry

Jimmy Fricke · #3 (**permalink**) 01-20-2009, 12:56 PM

If the guy mucked without turning them over, just go with what the TD says but I'd expect to win the pot. If they go through some thing to figure out what cards are his, then just go along with it. It's a small pot. But kkeep in mind you still beat 97 which is a very likely hand for him in this spot.

Chris Vitch · #4 (**permalink**) 01-20-2009, 01:39 PM

This is sort of a tangent but I really hate the way you acted at showdown and I see it all the time. Just turn your hand over and then either muck when he shows something better or get a pleasant surprise. What's the need to "go to muck" or say "you got it" or anything that doesn't involve you immediately showing your hand?

Jimmy Fricke · #5 (**permalink**) 01-20-2009, 05:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chris Vitch

This is sort of a tangent but I really hate the way you acted at showdown and I see it all the time. Just turn your hand over and then either muck when he shows something better or get a pleasant surprise. What's the need to "go to muck" or say "you got it" or anything that doesn't involve you immediately showing your hand?

Pfft, limit players.

Bryan Devonshire · #6 (**permalink**) 01-20-2009, 06:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chris Vitch

This is sort of a tangent but I really hate the way you acted at showdown and I see it all the time. Just turn your hand over and then either muck when he shows something better or get a pleasant surprise. What's the need to "go to muck" or say "you got it" or anything that doesn't involve you immediately showing your hand?

I totally agree with this. I hate it when the player first to turn doesn't turn their cards over, and I hate it more when the player in position shows their cards and takes the pot. I want to see those cards too.

Anyways Matt, I think you handled it fine with just letting the floor make a ruling.

Isaac Haxton · #7 (**permalink**) 02-08-2009, 04:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chris Vitch

This is sort of a tangent but I really hate the way you acted at showdown and I see it all the time. Just turn your hand over and then either muck when he shows something better or get a pleasant surprise. What's the need to "go to muck" or say "you got it" or anything that doesn't involve you immediately showing your hand?

+1 on this
showdown happens in a specific order proscribed by the rules. if its your turn to show a hand, show a hand or muck. don't say "i don't beat much" and sit there waiting for the other guy to turn up a hand.

Justin Bonomo · #8 (**permalink**) 02-10-2009, 03:55 AM

Quote:

My question here is... is it unethical to take the pot if his hand is somewhat visible in the muck?

Ignoring the floor ruling and trying to somehow give him back the pot would be a BIG no-no in a tournament.

Tom Dwan · #9 (**permalink**) 02-20-2009, 03:09 AM

w/o reading anything other than op, i say 'which 3', and then let him flip over 2/3 cards. If one of them is that 3 i give him the pot, if not i have the floor declare his hand dead (rules are obv on ur side).

Isaac Baron · #10 (**permalink**) 03-01-2009, 03:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Justin Bonomo

Ignoring the floor ruling and trying to somehow give him back the pot would be a BIG no-no in a tournament.

I agree with what Chris said but mostly agree with this. The floor is like the referee in a basketball game, you don't see anybody refusing to shoot free throws because they think the ref made a bad call, so don't refuse the pot if the floor is trying to give it to you no matter what. Just like in sports, calls go both ways so just go with what the floor says.