2 Hands From Venetian $2500

[Bryan Micon]

Hand #1: I have been playing tight with the Venetian $20k chips and 1.5 hr levels and had slipped a bit from the starting stack down to about $17k. I haven't played a hand in a few orbits, Blinds are 100/200 and I open the cutoff for 525 with 3-3.

Button calls, as he has almost all hands, and the SB who had a ton of chips and just bluffed most of them off 5 hands ago has ~ $13k left in his stack and places an orange $1k chip and a green $25 chip in front of his cards. The very attentive dealer announces "re-raise," much to his surprise. I have played with this player before and have seen him do this intending to call, as to make the change easier for the dealer - I am 100% sure he only meant to call. If he didn't mean to call, and was 3rd leveling me, I will quit poker tomorrow.

Action back on me, and I do what hopefully most of you would do, and make it $2525 to go. Button folds, SB shoves his $13k overhand and announces "I'm already on tilt, send me home." I genuinely believe he was telling the truth and wanted out. I have played with this player before. I folded 3-3, saving a $15k stack to work with the long levels and low blinds, feeling I can get these players to commit their chips when I have something amazing. FYI I will likely never fold in a situation like this ever again, as mis-raises are rare and me folding after I 4-bet even rarer (maybe this is a leak in my game, as I know lots of you fantastic players can 4-bet light). I likely call the man w/A-K A-Q and pairs above 8's, but 3's have to be racing 90% of the time and 10% of the time I hate everyone, when this dude tries to limp with 5-5 and then really tries to donk it off, of course having me dominated. I do not mind the way I played it, just mad at the result, and also sort of questioning if I made the right fold. He claimed he had K-J, which again I believe - but I just didn't want to race here, feeling I can get it in soooo much better.



Hand #2: New, tougher table. I open a few times and get 3-bet. I do it again and get 3-bet. I am starting to think I don't 4-bet light enough and I'm also starting to think I don't 3-bet enough. Anyway, 100-200 w/25. I am down to $12k after getting 3-bet every time I open (so I stopped opening - should I just 4-bet ship everything because I'm getting 3-bet so often???) and generally nothing at all going right all day, and of course not picking up any premium. Dude I've never seen before opens for $800. Brian Devonshire flats on the button. I look down and see AKo, easily the biggest hand I have seen all day. I make it $3k, leaving myself ~ $9k behind. The moment my chips hit the felt the dude I have never seen before ships his face for ~ $30k, with Devo having him well and covered. Devo thinks for a long time and later tells us he held (and showed a player not in the hand) QQ as it went in the muck. I thought for a while and just folded AK face up and left myself ~$9k, mostly because I love to torture myself in high buy in tourneys. Obviously the insta-ship has to be AK a good % of the time, but I just didn't like calling hoping I'm tied, with the smaller % of the time putting it in dominated. Brandon Can-spew (No offense t Brandon, he has had amazing success with his seemingly crazy and wild style, I just like saying Brandon Can-Spew) and Devonshire both think I should have went with it, obviously due to my tiny little stack at that time (avg ~ $35k). I feel the unknown's range is AK, AA, and KK - especially knowing Devo was holding QQ. Does he re-ship his whole face with <JJ ? I played with him for a couple of rounds before this, and he didn't seem to far out of line - and insta-all-in with a dangerous player having you covered? or did he not fear Devo because he just flatted and wanted to play my hand HU, making my range estimations way off? Devonshire please tell me how to play this game!

I have re-examined my tournament game so much in the past year, and some of you guys that post here I am not afraid to admit are waaaay better than me - but I am going to study and play and study and play until I catch back up. I further feel the the entire poker community 3-bets and even 4-bets me light. Sometimes I think I just need to go back to super-tight mode I played in 2006, and everyone 3-betting light is going to get hurt because I'm never going to fold. But then I think that is really stupid because I'll never pick up enough hands, even in the deepest stacked tournaments. So then I decide to try and 3-bet more but have trouble pulling the trigger. Then I think about just running a website and not messing with all this... but this game is the only thing I really like doing so I decide to post here and try to learn as much as I can. Ok, I can now go to bed. Your thoughts on everything are much appreciated. Devo please teach me.

[Bryan Devonshire]

Dude's range is honestly like JJ+, AK.

I don't think he thought it a possibility that I had QQ+. He was def on the level of, "Kid didn't re-raise, kid can't have a big hand."

If you're putting me on exactly QQ which makes sense due to me saying, "**** my life," etc., here's your numbers:

Text results appended to pokerstove.txt

452,048,256 games 0.005 secs 90,409,651,200 games/sec

Board:
Dead: Qc Qd

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 39.000% 19.25% 19.75% 87032040 89265879.00 { AKo }
Hand 1: 61.000% 41.25% 19.75% 186484458 89265879.00 { JJ+, AKs, AKo }

It's costing you ~9k for a whack at 12k+3k+600+550= 16,150, so you need 35% equity for the right price.

Due to random berzeko factor and it already being a small +cEV call, get it in.

Make your threads more cliff notes now, details later imo - easier to read and get feedback.

Nice seeing you today

[Bryan Micon]

Originally Posted by Bryan Devonshire

Dude's range is honestly like JJ+, AK.

I don't think he thought it a possibility that I had QQ+. He was def on the level of, "Kid didn't re-raise, kid can't have a big hand."

If you're putting me on exactly QQ which makes sense due to me saying, "**** my life," etc., here's your numbers:

Text results appended to pokerstove.txt

452,048,256 games 0.005 secs 90,409,651,200 games/sec

Board:
Dead: Qc Qd

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 39.000% 19.25% 19.75% 87032040 89265879.00 { AKo }
Hand 1: 61.000% 41.25% 19.75% 186484458 89265879.00 { JJ+, AKs, AKo }

It's costing you ~9k for a whack at 12k+3k+600+550= 16,150, so you need 35% equity for the right price.

Due to random berzeko factor and it already being a small +cEV call, get it in.

Make your threads more cliff notes now, details later imo - easier to read and get feedback.

Nice seeing you today

1) Sorry about long rambling post, it was a blog on NWP that needed to be posted here so I could go to sleep, because I kept thinking about those damn hands + other topics mentioned

2) The dude that re-shipped just insta-no-think re-shipped. Yes that is AK a lot. People do no-think-just-reship that hand. And I suppose it seemed to me that holding AK myself then I am again calling hoping I am tied. The Stove results show a small profit based on giving him JJ and QQ in his range. I suppose you played with him longer and can better estimate his range, but man that was a fast super-quick all in!

edit to add: Nice to see you too today! Get a new boat for this summer!

[Christian Harder]

bryan-overflat the AK if your not willing to 3 bet/call it. As played Call.

With your read (that he meant to call) i think you played the first hand fine.

[Barry Greenstein]

Bryan,

In hand number one, what is wrong with shipping it on the four-bet. I don't think this is a normal situation where we make a reasonable size raise, which I would make here with a big pair. Since it seems he is on tilt, he probably would have widened his raising range, but he only intended to called. Why not just take the pot down? When I am in these accidental raise situations and I don't want to get called, I make it as sure as possible that I don't get called. Making a normal reraise may get you some extra money if you can get him to fold on the flop, but I'm not sure if it's worth the risk with your chip stack.

I remember being in a similar situation with total garbage and my opponent said, "Well I know you can't have Aces or Kings. You wouldn't have bet so much." I said, "I don't want to lose a goofy hand because of your mistake." That got him to fold.

My suggestion reminds me of the scenario where you raise in, get called, and then a third player who is short stacked moves all in. You often overbet to clear out the player who called behind you.

Barry

[Bryan Micon]

Originally Posted by Barry Greenstein

Bryan,

In hand number one, what is wrong with shipping it on the four-bet. I don't think this is a normal situation where we make a reasonable size raise, which I would make here with a big pair. Since it seems he is on tilt, he probably would have widened his raising range, but he only intended to called. Why not just take the pot down? When I am in these accidental raise situations and I don't want to get called, I make it as sure as possible that I don't get called. Making a normal reraise may get you some extra money if you can get him to fold on the flop, but I'm not sure if it's worth the risk with your chip stack.

I remember being in a similar situation with total garbage and my opponent said, "Well I know you can't have Aces or Kings. You wouldn't have bet so much." I said, "I don't want to lose a goofy hand because of your mistake." That got him to fold.

My suggestion reminds me of the scenario where you raise in, get called, and then a third player who is short stacked moves all in. You often overbet to clear out the player who called behind you.

Barry

I was just doing my monthly sweep of the PokerRoad Red Pro Froum when I found this response to my hand. Thanks for taking the time to give me your thoughts on it, and nice 9-ball on the turn vs. Durrr in whatever episode of HSP I'm watching.

and I sure like the line of just shipping it. Didn't even cross my mind b/c it would have been such an overbet. After the "accidental 3-bet" which I'm still very certain that it was accidental, I thought to myself "what if I had KK here. What would I do?" So i decided on the 4-bet. sort of an amateur hour 4-bet fold in retrospect, but hey I'm still learning.

Also of note if I played the AK hand today there would have certainly been 5 cards across the middle.