Omaha Eight or Better decision from the WSOPE HORSE event

[Justin Bonomo]

Phil, you don't even mention the option of folding here. What's the worst hand you are 3-betting?

[Doyle Brunson]

The day I fold that hand is the day I quit playing Omaha 8 or better. You only get the button once every 8 hands, you are double suited and you have the almighty Ace in your hand. Daniel might have anything in that position, as you saw when his hand came down. I probably wouldn't have three bet becase I want the blinds to get in with weak hands. You can fold that hand easily if you miss the flop and lose only two bets.

[Aaron Bartley]

I originally posted this on 2p2 before I got Level 18 Security Clearance to this fine forum:

IMO the list of reasons why it's good to 3bet, in order of importance:

1. You have position on a thinking player
2. The thinking player could have a wider range then normal b/c of what he knows about the people behind him, esp the blinds
3. If the blinds call you can put them on a pretty narrow range

If I was playing the hand, I would think "do I have a hand that rates to play well vs Daniel, in position?" Yes. So I don't want to fold. Then, "do I want to call and let a ton of people in behind me?" No. I could consider it if, say, the 5 was a 2, because I would figure that my equity would be higher going for half of a large pot rather than all of a small pot. But as it is, I have a decent but not great hand, that I still want to play. I want to 3bet b/c I want everyone behind me to fold. If someone does call, I have a pretty good idea as to what they hold, and can proceed from there.

[Daniel Negreanu]

First of all Barry, I can guarantee you that I was, in fact, double suited with my piece of cheese as well!

As for your hand, it's a hand I would definitely three bet, especially in a tournament. In fact, as the tournament progresses I increase the range of hands I 3-bet with in an attempt to actually lower my variance by playing heads up pots in position rather than multi-way pots.

You were definitely right about one thing, I was looking to play some pots against the blinds as they obviously weren't very experienced. When you hesitated I actually thought you were still going to 3 bet me. As it turns out, you saved yourself from losing a decent sized pot by folding.

Historically I've had a lot of success in Omaha 8 tournaments and one of the weapons that can be attributed for that success is 3-betting with the right type of hands. Those hands include two way hands, and the actual strength of the hand is less important than the fact that there are both high and low features.

It's better, for example, to 3-bet with a hand like A-4-10-J than it is with a hand like A-2-6-8.

[Daniel Negreanu]

Originally Posted by Doyle Brunson

The day I fold that hand is the day I quit playing Omaha 8 or better. You only get the button once every 8 hands, you are double suited and you have the almighty Ace in your hand. Daniel might have anything in that position, as you saw when his hand came down. I probably wouldn't have three bet becase I want the blinds to get in with weak hands. You can fold that hand easily if you miss the flop and lose only two bets.

I disagree with Doyle's line on this hand because the hand isn't strong enough to want to invite action, yet too good to fold. The hand rates to play much better heads up in position then it will 3 or 4 handed, even if the blinds call with ugly hands.

The hand is rough on the low side and weak on the high side. It's a hand, that unless you are really good at playing post flop, will cause you lots of headaches after the flop if you have a bet and a call in front of you and flop a Jack and a low draw, or something to that effect.

[Barry Greenstein]

Originally Posted by Daniel Negreanu

First of all Barry, I can guarantee you that I was, in fact, double suited with my piece of cheese as well!

They always claim they were double suited!

As it turns out, you saved yourself from losing a decent sized pot by folding.

Actually, I would still have won the low.

Even though Daniel won a only little over a 1000 on this hand, he took control of the table away from me after this. Sometimes getting a hold of a few more chips allows you to take some extra risks, and Daniel started pressuring our weak opponents more and more as he built up his stack.

Barry

[Daniel Alaei]

I am with the 3 bet crowd here but mainly for the reason that against a loose cutoff/button raiser its generally better to have the lead in any limit game (unlike holdem this is a game where there are exceptions to this rule). This hand also plays infinitely better heads up than multiway as by just calling you are pricing in the blinds to call you with better low hands. I think a more interesting question is what do you do with AK23ds in this same spot?

[Doyle Brunson]

Would all you 3 bettors please meet me at the Bellagio tomorrow?

[Justin Bonomo]

Originally Posted by Doyle Brunson

I probably wouldn't have three bet becase I want the blinds to get in with weak hands.

We have AJ85, and only one of our suits isn't easily dominated. Sure, the BB will be coming along a lot of the time with trashy hands, but he's correct to do so. We might dominate one aspect of his hand, such as his diamond draw, but we will never just have him crushed. We're allowing him to make a correct call way too often.

If we had AQ84, then things would be a lot different, but I really don't think our hand is strong enough to encourage the BB to call getting 5.5-1 in a 3 way pot.

[Barry Greenstein]

Originally Posted by Justin Bonomo

If we had AQ84, then things would be a lot different, but I really don't think our hand is strong enough to encourage the BB to call getting 5.5-1 in a 3 way pot.

I don't claim to know what the cutoffs are, since it surely also depends on how our opponents play, but I doubt many of the three bettors would have played AQ84 any differently.

There is a tendency of the math crowd to cite preflop pot odds that aren't very relevant. The BB certainly doesn't get 5.5 to 1 odds here because the betting continues on, with the player often throwing good money after bad as he keeps justifying the decreasing (when you take into account all the money he has put into the pot on the hand) but still seemingly +EV odds he is getting. (He is often correct that calling has become +EV because of the initial -EV moves he made.)

Also, a mistake about odds is often made where getting good pot odds against one opponent may be bad odds having to beat two or three.

Barry