Omaha Eight or Better decision from the WSOPE HORSE event

[Barry Greenstein]

We started with 10,000 in chips and I was one of the early tournament leaders with around 15,000 at the third level. I had a nice table with several passive players who were giving out a lot of free cards when they had the best hands. Bruno Fitoussi was to my right and Daniel Negreanu was two to my right with about 12,000.

In Omaha eight or better, at the 75-150 blind level, I picked up A J 8 5. I was on the button with two very passive players in the blinds. As people were folding around to me I had planned on raising on the button, but Daniel raised in for 300 and I took a few seconds to decide what to do.

Daniel hadn't been doing too much dancing around, and he rated to be the best of my opponents at the table. Omaha eight or better is one of his stronger games in the mix. I didn't know whether I should fold, call, or raise. Usually I process information pretty quickly, but I had been up until 7AM the last two nights because of playing and announcing the PokerStars WCOOP events.

What would you do?

I weighed the pros and cons of the options:

Reraising:

1. I'm double suited!
2. I was in pretty good control of the table at this point and I might want to keep the pressure on Daniel.
3. I have position after the flop.
4. Three betting gives me a chance to represent Aces and get him to lay big pairs down after the flop.
5. I can knock out the blinds who may have slightly better holdings than I have in either the high or low direction.

Calling:

1. I am still double suited.
2. My hand is marginal, but playable in position.
3. There are some weak players in the blinds that I don't mind playing with after the flop.

Folding:

1. I wish the Jack was a King, since this is significantly better on the high side.
2. I wish the low was a little better, since my low is pretty mediocre.
3. It is a very slightly better hand if the second suit gives a Jack high flush, also because it would possibly allow someone to make a higher flush in the suit where I can make the nut flush.
4. Because I was tired and this is live poker, I have now hesitated (3-5 seconds more than normal) to the point where it may be obvious to Daniel that fold is one of my options, which weakens what I can represent. I certainly can't represent Aces anymore, as I could have with a quick raise.

I decided to not go after Daniel, since there were so many easy play opportunities against the rest of the table. I made the conservative play and folded.

The big blind called him and the flop came down:

10 9 3

I wanted to be back in as a three better now, since I have a straight draw and tens and nines are not normal cards to be in your opponents hands in eight or better, so I might even win it on the flop.

Daniel bet the flop and got called, and I hoped for a card that wouldn't complete my straight.

I wanted to throw up when the 7 came off on the turn, which would have given me the nut straight. Daniel again bet and got called.

I hoped for a club or at least a low card on the river, so I may not have missed out on a scoop. The river was the 4.

This made the final board:

10 9 3 7 4

Daniel bet and got called and showed:

J 10 5 2

He scooped the pot with the 3rd nut low and a bad flush. I had a dominating hand against his, both high and low and was very unhappy about my decision.

I think I forgot one crucial factor which became apparent when Daniel turned over that piece of garbage. Daniel was looking for any excuse to find a hand to play against those guys to my left, so he opened a hand he wouldn't have played with stronger players in the blinds.

Barry

[Annette Obrestad]

I am not a HORSE player by any means, but I am a big fan of isolating in pos in any limit game instead of just calling. So if I were to play the hand my stanard line would be to 3b for sure. I agree with ur pros and cons, but I dont think flatting would rly be right here especially given that the blinds are likely to come in. Is it really a good thing to play a 3-4 way pot with such a marginal hand and having to play postflop with no information at all?

Would u have played any high only hands in this stiuation? Say u have TTJQ with a suit or something in the ballpark of high suited cards?

I know matusow is big on trying to locate where the Aces are in omaha o8. and try to figure out how many lowcards are out before deciding to call with those kind of hands. Does the fact that everyone else has folded make u think that the blinds or Daniel are more likely to have a good A2xx, A3xx hands?

As for the hand tho... you cant rly be results oriented like that and say that u woulda scooped and it sucks that u folded etc and I know that u know that. Once the hand is folded, the only thing that should matter is the showdown and what he turns up with, not the board.

Anyway.. done rambling, love this forum <3

Annette

[Jimmy Fricke]

Definitely 3bet in this hand if you've decided to play the pot. Daniel seems loose enough that it can be profitable so I'd go ahead and do it unless your stack size is such that it significantly hurts you to lose. Players in the blinds might fold A4 or A3 hands they would call with in the blind that you definitely don't want them to call with, you have position, and you have the lead.

I've been experimenting with 3betting in O8 a decent amount recently, and a hand as weak as this in a multiway pot really needs to get HU, but I estimate you win the pot against Daniel in position against his range a significant portion of the time. If you had a hand like A3J8 I don't mind a call as much but would still tend to 3bet. I'd even 3bet AK82 but call with a hand like AJ43.

[Annette Obrestad]

Originally Posted by Jimmy Fricke

Definitely 3bet in this hand if you've decided to play the pot. Daniel seems loose enough that it can be profitable so I'd go ahead and do it unless your stack size is such that it significantly hurts you to lose. Players in the blinds might fold A4 or A3 hands they would call with in the blind that you definitely don't want them to call with, you have position, and you have the lead.

I've been experimenting with 3betting in O8 a decent amount recently, and a hand as weak as this in a multiway pot really needs to get HU, but I estimate you win the pot against Daniel in position against his range a significant portion of the time. If you had a hand like A3J8 I don't mind a call as much but would still tend to 3bet. I'd even 3bet AK82 but call with a hand like AJ43.

When u say u would just call with a hand like A3J8 is that because u want the blinds to come in with weaker Ax holdings? And because if someone comes in from behind ur basically ****ed on both ends if u 3b? Where as a hand like AK82 does good on at least the high or the low if worst comes to worst? Still trying to learn this... sorry for noob questions lol.

Also by not 3bing hands like that, doesnt that make ur range easier to read when u do 3b? Isnt it better to be 3b or folding ur entire range in that position just to balance everything?

[Barry Greenstein]

I'm not ignoring your comments, but don't want to respond too much in this thread and this forum until we get more red pros on board, otherwise it may ending up looking like my personal forum.

I will try to get Doyle, Gus, Daniel and Phil to post about this. I have a feeling Gus will say he would have three-bet if the Ace was a King. I don't think he has ever passed up a three-bet with a double-suited hand when someone opened in late postion and he was behind them.

Barry

[Jimmy Fricke]

Basically as the hand gets better multiway you should be less likely to 3bet to isolate. Raising preflop for value in O8 should only be done with very very strong hands, like aces with a 2, 3, or 4 or an A234 or A23 or something like that. AJ83 is not a very strong hand but A3 is significantly stronger than A4 and ridiculously stronger than A5.

AK82 is a strongish hand but you don't have much counterfeit protection and it's hard to win a huge pot with it. You can typically make one big pair and the nut low to scoop someone but doing so in a 4 way pot is very very hard. A hand like A34J may not always make the nut low when it makes a low but if you do make the nut low you've likely got a gutshot and it would be very tough to counterfeit. Not to mention flopping an ace makes your hand pretty big in a lot of situations against loose players playing bad low hands like 5678 or something like that.

Everyone seems to have a different philosophy on how to play O8 so I'm not too worried about people gaining information on our ranges when we 3bet preflop and when we don't. In a tournament, stack size affects a lot of things so you can start coldcalling when people are playing tight even with your strong HU hands simply because you don't want to get 4bet and have to call down if you flop top pair on a really scary board.

[Annette Obrestad]

Yeah, ok, makes sense, thanks.

[Bryan Devonshire]

I like what Jimmy said. I know that Jimmy likes 3-betting in O8. LOL.

Barry, I think your point about Daniel realizing that 'fold' is an option is an important moment in the hand. Before that moment I like 3-betting, after I like folding. If the villain is somebody who would not recognize that, then 3 betting after some thought is fine imo.

Do you think Daniel thought you were thinking about 3-betting him? If so I'm sure he knows that you noticed his piece of cheese hand. Do you think this might tighten up his opening range in this spot down the road?

[Justin Bonomo]

I would fold this without hesitation against a good/tight cash game player, but I think I would 3-bet it against a confident tournament player trying to play loose and outplay people like Daniel. He typically plays O8 extremely loose preflop from my experiences with him.

[Phil Ivey]

I have never officially posted anything online before but when i read this hand i felt it was my duty to comment. Its not even close that this is a clear 3bet situation that came up. Lets just act like it's a normal player raising and not daniel because i don't even want to discuss the way daniel plays omaha 8. That's a completely diff issue. I look for situations like that to 3 bet. Those are the best situations that come up that most people aren't aware of.

When u 3 bet and get called by one of the blinds u can pretty much put them on certain type of hands allowing u to get away on flop pretty cheaply when certain flops come up. Also u take the lead away from your opponent which allows u to win hands when the flop comes up kkq or 996 . You're going to pick up all of those hands on the flop if ur opponent doesn't flop anything.

Also by 3 betting in those situations it stops your opponent from raising with weaker holdings as such and taking your button away. Once u put a stop to him raising with those pieces of cheese now you're exercising control of table and he will pass those hands and allow u to raise with below average hands on the button and win some hands u normally wouldn't be able to win if your opponent to your right was more aggressive.