PLO 10k WSOPE bustout hand

[Annette Obrestad]

Little background first.

I had been playing extremely tight all day. Limped into some pots and for the most part c/f'ed on the flop. Did a little stabbing, but quickly let go or gave up on the pots if contested. I just doubled up repotting a button raise with AKJ6ds and getting half my stack in preflop and the rest on ATx flop vs AT93. Spiked a Q on the turn.

Sitting nicely at 24k at the time which is avg or so. David Williams is to my left with a huge stack. Hes basically playing every single pot either coming in for a raise or limping, and playing extremely aggressive postflop bullying ppl around a lot.

So to the hand. William limps at 250-500 utg+1.. which could mean any 4 cards. Saw him limp 99J4o no suits utg earlier, and also rags like 2345 and 2366, so this doesnt mean anything. Couple other ppl limp. I check int eh bb with Q752o.

Flop comes 575. I check. I didnt wanna lead here into 5 players because it screams 'I have a big hand, please play with me.' Especially because of how I had been playing earlier. I hadnt lead at any limped pots up untill now so I figured if I do lead they're all just gonna fold. Its checked around to the button (who I dont know, but hes been playing solidly, not doing anything stupid, not stabbing a lot or been outta line). So I figure this guy must have a big hand, so I c/r to 8k. Obv at this point I've already announced that I have a huge hand, but I also wanna protect in case someone has a hand like 5JQK which still has a lot of outs agaianst me.

Now to the problem... David cold calls the 8k. I'm just thinking to myself...wtf. I have the second nuts and I'm only scared of 77xx. He had been making spewy calls earlier, but not having a lot of experience playing against him I didnt know if he was bad enough to call there with hands like A5xx, 5689 or any othe non full house hands.

Btn folds. Turn A.

Obviously the worst turn card in the deck for me cuz I can beat anything anymore. But I was kinda tilted at the time from him hitting every flop and stacking everyone and just totally running the table that I didnt feel like c/fing, so I sticked the rest in and he snapcalled with 77xx and I missed my one outer.

I guess my question here is... Knowing that David is known for being a good plo/holdem player but not really seeing it in his play today, does that make this hand a fold on the turn? I'd still have 16k left if I give him a pot, which is fine when there are no antes and 1hr blind levels. Does anyone think his range is larger than 57xx and 77xx and that I just gotta close my eyes and shove and hope for the best.

Barry, u were at the table.. what went through ur head when David cc'ed my c/r, and would u have played it any differently?

Any thoughts appreciated.

Annette

[Barry Greenstein]

With the amount of chips you had left, David's call is analogous to the situation in no-limit hold'em where preflop a person calls a three bet for more than half of his chips, but surprisingly doesn't go all in. The player is supposed to have Aces hoping someone will make a mistake.

In this situation where David calls and it looks like you are potstuck to call a raise even if you only held a five with three kickers, David is supposed to have pocket sevens. Even with seven-five he should raise you all-in and take his chances that you don't hit your kicker. There is no reason to let you see the kicker on the turn for free. But it's David Williams, and he doesn't always have what he's supposed to have, so it's not that unreasonable that you shoved the turn and hoped for the best. (After the loose player to your right went busted, we had a relatively tough table. Against most of the rest of the table you should mentally have thrown your hand in the muck at that point, if any of them had flat called your raise)

Chris Bjorin (good solid PLO player on the button) had the other five, just like he represented. Typically when there is a lot of action three ways on the flop on a paired board in PLO, two people have the card that's paired, and the other person has the full house with a pair of the other card.

Barry

[Jimmy Fricke]

It's obviously an extremely difficult spot to play, but I think in general I prefer leading the flop since it'd be very difficult to get the money in amazing in this situation by check/raising. First impulse is always to check but when you c/r you have a 5 at worst and most people can play somewhat perfectly against you. Check/call is also a good option because it looks like a 5 or maybe if you appear to be experienced in PLO a wrap or something like that.

I prefer to bet out because you can represent a bluff much more easily. By leading out I would never ever fold to action though.

As played, it's a rough spot but I tend to go broke in some way. I think checking the turn and shoving the river is better though since it can actually seem like a bluff and get looked up somewhat light (meaning a bare 5 even though the A on the turn really really sucks).

If you think his flatting range on the flop is wide enough to stack off on the turn, basically containing any 5 or 77, then I don't mind c/f on the turn because he'd likely not bet any hand but a full house but it'd still be tough because it is David Williams.

[Annette Obrestad]

Its really been bothering me how I played this hand since I busted in the tourney and I cant stop thinking about how awful my play was. I think I let my emotions control my play, which is something I never usually do. If I was playing my A-game without letting him get under my skin I woulda stopped and thought about it and prolly found a fold if I had to. But I guess thats why David is still playing and im not .

[Vanessa Selbst]

I agree with Jimmy fwiw - I'd be leading out into the field rather than c/r. You say yourself that leading seems strong and you don't think people would play with you - but it's ludicrous to think they won't play if they also have trips.

Check/raising obviously isn't a great option since you say "I didnt know if he was bad enough to call there with hands like A5xx, 5689 or any othe non full house hands." Do you really want to play in a way that a player would have to be "really bad" to call with non-full house hands?

Furthermore, letting it check around and having TT spike a T would be terrible and cost you some chips as well. If your full house were bigger, there would be merit in letting someone catch an underfull, but that isn't the case here.

I'd lead out, let someone with a 5 peel or raise, and then let them commit the rest of their chips without a full house on the turn because "the pot is so big already."

[Barry Greenstein]

What Vanessa and Jimmy said makes sense, but this is a case where by checking, Annette got "lucky" to get three-way flop action which gave her information about the extreme strength of David's hand, and that was her chance to get away.

Betting out may have sealed her fate on this particular cold-deck, however betting out is the crucial defensive move against a free card, as Vanessa mentioned.

David is certainly loose-aggressive, but he isn't stupid. Put yourself in his shoes. What hand would you flat call with there in a five-way unraised pot? It may have helped Annette if she knew Chris Bjorin (who was short on chips) a little better, but she had him read right.

David opened an account here last night, but he is playing Day 2 of the event right now. I'm sure he will have something to add to the discussion later.

Barry

[Bryan Devonshire]

Originally Posted by Jimmy Fricke

I prefer to bet out because you can represent a bluff much more easily. By leading out I would never ever fold to action though.

If you think his flatting range on the flop is wide enough to stack off on the turn, basically containing any 5 or 77, then I don't mind c/f on the turn because he'd likely not bet any hand but a full house but it'd still be tough because it is David Williams.

+2

[David Williams]

Well I am out. Annette won't believe it but I played a totally different style today. Just sat back and folded most hands and waited patiently for good spots. I finally found one with 89TJcc on the 6c7cQs board vs KKQJ red. I c/r all in and he called and two blanks later I was on the rail.

First I'll address the question at the end of Annette's original post. "Does that make this hand a fold on the turn". I think the answer is a clear yes. I was trying to get greedy by flat-calling your raise, trying to get Chris. I should have realized that he is too tight/wise for that and would figure out my hand and easily be able to fold a 5 without a 7 (and maybe 57xx too). Since you have 57xx there are only two other hands out there to be involved. 77xx and 5xxx.
I guess it seems easier to me because I have played with Chris many times, but I think the ONLY hand HE could bet there in that spot would be 5xxx or 57xxx. That eliminates that from my possible holdings and leaves nothing other than 77.
Like Barry said, I am LA but not stupid. There is no way 5689 or anything other than 77 could be in my range. I am not calling a raise with action behind me, on a paired board, with a straight draw. When Chris folded, he also made some facial gestures and did some odd things to the player to his right which seemed that he was indicating that he was folding a 5. I was actually upset with myself when he folded because I felt that you were going to figure it out and get off your hand, especially when an Ace came on the turn.
In retrospect I think I made a mistake flat calling you and should have just raised you all in. It's less obvious I have 77 and gives you less of a chance to get off of your hand.

Perhaps it just comes down to knowing Chris Bjorn and how he plays and that's why it seems obvious to me and Barry. Either way, it's not an easy lay-down and I don't think anyone can really fault you for getting all your chips in the middle, besides... your opponent was David Wiliams and he never has anything.

[David Williams]

Annette,

You mentioned that I "got under your skin". What did I do? I thought I was pretty friendly towards you, as I always have been. Just curious because if I did do something I'd like to apologize.

DW

[Annette Obrestad]

Well, not in a personal way, but u just made it really hard for me to play well when u had so many chips. I couldnt play my normal game of opening a lot preflop because u were in every hand and always had position on me.. so to counter the only thing I could really do was limp with my whole range preflop to not build the pot too much when I knew theres was a 90% chance of u calling in pos. Limited my options so much and made it extremely hard for me to get chips unless I hit flops. And I guess it tilted me a bit which I said earlier.. it shouldnt have.

Anyway, I played the hand poorly simply because I hadnt played with any of u before and I underestimated ur play because u did some weird things early on that I would consider to be bad, but might not be cause I suck at omaha lol

Gl in the main event

Annette