Hand from $2500 HA

Eric Lynch · #1 (**permalink**) 06-04-2009, 12:07 PM

I was really unsure of what to do on this hand. This hand came up during the PLHE part of the tournament, relevant info:

Image: Nitty, maybe even weak/tight. Villain is 40-50 yr old solid player, not sure if he knows who I am or not that would impact my image at all.

History: We've only played one significant pot together, during PLO. He limped UTG I potted from the CO with QQT7ds diamonds and spades. Flop was T42 all diamonds. Action went check/check, he bet pot on turn (Kh) and I called, he bet pot on river (Ah) and I tank/folded as he had been playing relatively tight up until that point. After folding he flashed the Kd. I tanked long enough it was somewhat obvious I had a tough decision, but not sure if thinks I'm a hold em donkey who couldn't decide to fold AAxx there or folded something like I had.

Villain Image: Mid 40s/50s guy. Had been playing fairly tight, but not super nitty and not weak tight. Had played most of the pots he had been in strongly making pot sized bets or check/folding for the most part. He had played one hand in the PLO section where he flopped middle set against a player who obviously had AAxx and check/called his flop push, but that seemed pretty standard and I hadn't seen him show anything else but that Kd. Had never check/raised up until this point. He also seemed to show a basic understanding of pot/implied odds playing a more hands with more players in the pot, particularly from the button and blinds, but I hadn't seen him show anything down yet.

Hand. 50/100 PLHE I was dealt A

A

in middle position. Folds to me and I raise to 300. Terrible calling station two to my left calls, Gavin Smith calls on the button, decent player in small blind calls, and villain mentioned above calls in the big blind.

We start this hand with ~11k, villain has us covered.

Flop (1500): J

3

2

Checks to me. I make it 750 (which in hindsight I think is a little small here). bad player folds, Gavin folds, SB folds, BB rather quickly makes it 1500. I call

Turn (4500): 3

Villain bets pot. We have ~9k left.

What do we do? If it influences the decision at all, the table seems pretty soft during PLO and probably about average during hold em. I had one of the best seats at the table though with most of the better players (Gavin being the obvious exception) directly on my right. Comments on all streets welcome and appreciated.

Annette Obrestad · #2 (**permalink**) 06-04-2009, 10:28 PM

I dont really think this is a tough decision to be honest. You got the best turn card in the deck after calling the flop cause it eliminates two of the hands ur really scared of. J2 and 3s. Hed never ever pot there with quads, and I doubt hed really do it with Js or 2s either. I'd have a really hard time putting him on J3, J2 or 23 even if hes been pot odds calling a lot preflop.

Obviously he will have a full house some of the time, but I'm pretty sure he has a hand like As5s As4s, 5s6s, 4s5s, As2s or other random flushdraws a loooot. God knows, he might even have Qs or Ks slowplaying preflop and trying to find out where hes at on the flop with the small c/r and now potting turn figuring hes good and just protecting against draws.

It just feels like his range consists of a lot more draws than made hands with his betsize on flop and turn. If he did happen to have two pair on the flop I think he'd raise larger to protect against whatever draws or overpairs u might have cause live players like to do that. I just find it really hard to believe he'd pot it with a full house on the turn if hes a smart player. Because he'd know that ur folding all ur draws and maybe even overpairs the way u had been playing so a smaller bet would be a lot better to make sure he still gets action from ur big hands and that u dont fold ur big draws.

Also I think timing on the turn is extremely important. The longer he takes to bet on the turn, the stronger his hand is I think, so if he insta potted, I'd never ever ever fold.

If ur not willing to go with it on this turn, you shouldnt be calling the flop to begin with.

Yevgeniy Timoshenko · #3 (**permalink**) 06-04-2009, 10:43 PM

I don't fold the Q high flush or the As here... Since the pot bet represents half your stack I think you have an easy shove in.

Annette Obrestad · #4 (**permalink**) 06-04-2009, 11:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yevgeniy Timoshenko

I don't fold the Q high flush or the As here... Since the pot bet represents half your stack I think you have an easy shove in.

Read OP again imo

Edit: Nm, u were talking about the omaha hand

Bryan Devonshire · #5 (**permalink**) 06-05-2009, 04:43 AM

ez shove imo, really feels like AJ ish based on description of villain and flop/turn betsizing. Plus what Annette said about card removal with the trey.

Eric Lynch · #6 (**permalink**) 06-05-2009, 01:49 PM

Yeah, guess I was seeing monsters here and folded. I thought the 3 was a great card for me (was thinking about card removal etc) but I just felt like he was super strong when he shipped and I felt like my edge was huge in this tournament and at this table. I had my hands on my chips and 'all in' was in my throat like 3x, but I finally folded. I talked to a few of the other players at the table with me later and it was half and half on if the guys who were actually at the table thought it was a call or a push (I only talked to two people, so not really a good sample size).

Haven't been running the best lately, so starting to think I'm seeing monsters at times I shouldn't, this kind of confirms that and part of the reason I posted it.

Thanks

Isaac Baron · #7 (**permalink**) 06-11-2009, 06:12 AM

I think the omaha hand is much more interesting than the hand you actually posted, I think the omaha hand is very close and I think your fold is pretty good. The hold em hand is just mind boggling, he has a good jack here like always, never ever fold.

Yevgeniy Timoshenko · #8 (**permalink**) 06-12-2009, 09:48 PM

I don't see how you can fold the Q high flush when its a HU pot and our hand is so underrepped. Flopping a flush isn't easy to do, even when you're dealt 4 cards pre. He could vbet worse, and he could certainly bluff thinking we don't have flushes in our range because we checked flop. If you want to fold because he potted as opposed to making a standard ~2/3 pot bet; I don't think thats very telling because more players than you'd think only bet pot in PLO.

Phil D'Auteuil · #9 (**permalink**) 06-14-2009, 07:34 PM

gavin isnt good at poker (and easy shove)

Isaac Baron · #10 (**permalink**) 06-15-2009, 05:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yevgeniy Timoshenko

I don't see how you can fold the Q high flush when its a HU pot and our hand is so underrepped. Flopping a flush isn't easy to do, even when you're dealt 4 cards pre. He could vbet worse, and he could certainly bluff thinking we don't have flushes in our range because we checked flop. If you want to fold because he potted as opposed to making a standard ~2/3 pot bet; I don't think thats very telling because more players than you'd think only bet pot in PLO.

When an old guy who is described as "not out of line" goes pot-pot on the turn and river you have a bluff catcher, thinking that he is value-betting worse seems really optomistic to me. I just don't think he is bluffing often enough to call and would be really surprised if he had a lower flush ever.