Quote:
Originally Posted by Bryan Devonshire
tbh i was multitabling and called 3rd without looking too closely behind, big mistake and if it hadn't been 7:42pm on a rough Sunday I would have easily folded 3rd street. After calling I said whoops, found myself in that silly spot on 4th, and, folded.
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I think this needs to be revisited because folding 4th here is a huge mistake, IMO. Here's the 3rd street:*
Quote:
Tournament - HORSE - Razz - Level XIII (1,000/2,000), Ante 200, Bring-In 300 (converter)
Seat 1: 10,174
Seat 2: 4,998
Hero: 13,699
Seat 4: 15,677
Seat 5: 19,945
Seat 6: 15,824
Seat 7: 29,547
Seat 8: 7,320
3rd Street - (1.60 SB)
Seat 1: xx xx 8 ___folds
Seat 2: xx xx 4 ___folds
Hero: 6 2 7___calls
Seat 4: xx xx Q___brings-in___folds
Vil 5: xx xx 3___calls___calls
Seat 6: xx xx 5___folds
Vil 7: xx xx A ___raises
Seat 8: xx xx 4___calls
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Okay, what are these players holding? Seat 5 is limping in, so we stick him on a decent 8 or a rough 7 like yours. If it's a true Razz player like say SGspecial (Doctor Razz here) always assume an early limp is a big hand he's slo-playing, but for the average HORSE Razz player, let's decide at this point in the tournament he isn't an idiot like a low limit player and is not going to limp/call with an actual brick in the hole. Perhaps you made some note of his 3rd strett play previously? ............ OK .....but next time you will.
Seat 7 completes. Does this mean he has a big hand? Not if he's a high stakes Razzer, or even a 2/4 player. This is the big stack, he's going to complete here trying to get HU with the weak hand with some pretty weak holdings himself. He could have an actual brick, or of course, (32)A, but you can't presume he is ahead of you. So far you have two players in you are not necessarily behind. Seat 8 is the scary-ass player, the one who, with the second-shortest stack, calls the big stack's completion. In a cash game this is a mandatory fold. I would also fold this 3rd street in a heartbeat in a Razz only tournament with 25 antes left.
But, at this stage in this trny, well, your stack can't afford to play any blind games, you need a big score in a stud game and now you have three players already in a hand that might be stone dead, but.... unless the EP limper is limp/raising, you can see this 4th street for one SB. I'm calling this 3rd street in a HORSE trny.
Just from the numbers, you HAVE to call here. And if you think about the action and how real Razzers play, stack size and where you are in the tournament, you can shove in your stack as hard as you can.
Numbers: by the time this gets to you, there are 9 bets in the pot and you are about 4-1 at worst. You need to get lucky someplace, and here you have a whole bunch of players who will probably be delighted to triple you up. At least.
Action: Seat 5 bets out. HORSE players don't make the best Razz players, if he has a marginal hand, he should check his brick here (albeit the best brick) so he doesn't get raised. If the guy is a Razzer, you can maybe put him on a big hand he was slo-playing. But if he is a NLHE or HORSE standard player, he's just betting his best board and hoping people will fold. Note the original completer, big stack, flats the original limper he completed. The guy hasn't exactly got three wheels behind that Q or he'd have done what the guy we thought was the most dangerous player did, raise.
Here's the thing. If you 3-bet here, you can get most of your stack in. A good thing. Whether you get a couple folds after which you gain a hell of a lot of equity, or they just get a lot more chips in there, you are in a great position to take down a massive pot.
BUT WHAT ABOUT ALL THOSE BABIES THAT ARE OUT??!!! I hear everyone shouting. Pots like this are sometimes won by a huge luckbox who just has A24 and gets the 3 on 4th and the 5 on 5th - but not often. Usually, a hand like this will not be won at the bottom, it will be won at the top and your top is probably as good as anyone's will be by the river. This is the kind of pot where everyone starts bricking up and a five-card 9 of any kind ends up with the chips because the other guys have the QJ32A hands. Keep in mind, if they have a lot of your cards, you have some of theirs, too. These folks are in desperate need of any 2, 6 or 7 they can get.
I notice there are a lot of pros and high stakes NLHE players suddenly playing Razz, apparently they want a shot at a HORSE bracelet.** Razz is not a simple game, and if you are going to sit at a table with The Bear and Freddy Deeb, you have to think a lot more creatively and understand those later streets a lot better. They may also think I am FOS, but the discussion in both these threads is pretty ABC kindergarten Razz.
In
The Theory of Poker, Sklansky says something that really relates here. He says (paraphrasing, it's been a while) that especially newer players tend to ask how a specific hand should be played. He says there is no answer to that because it's the wrong question. The right question is: what things should I be considering when I play this hand?
These are some of those things, IMO.
*and BTW, thanks for using the good converter so we can see the info we need
**My advice to any pro who wants to play a WSOP HORSE event and maybe get somewhere is: PM Doctor Razz and get him to give you a bit of personal coaching before you do.
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