REPOST: September 2009 Community Question #2

[LvOverRide]

I was asked to stick this hand here, so here I will stick it. I'm going to add in a little more information than I did in the OP.

#6

This hand is sort of standard, but still worth taking a look at I suppose. Villain is a fairly aggressive multi-tabling regular. Hero has been very active but has not shown down a lot of hands.


Full Tilt No-Limit Hold'em, $0.50 BB (5 handed) - Full-Tilt Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

BB ($71.25)
UTG ($56.50)
Hero ($135.20)
Button ($53.55)
SB ($89.50)

Preflop: Hero is MP with 8, 8
1 fold, Hero bets $1.50, 1 fold, SB calls $1.25, BB calls $1

Flop: ($4.50) 6, K, 8 (3 players)
SB checks, BB checks, Hero bets $3, 1 fold, BB calls $3

Turn: ($10.50) K (2 players)
BB checks, Hero bets $8, BB calls $8

River: ($26.50) 10 (2 players)
BB checks

How much are we betting here, and why? Remember that the BB's stack size at this point is $58.75.

Also, what does the villain's hand look like?

[LvOverRide]

Originally Posted by Barry Greenstein

First let's get rid of irrelevant cases. Most people don't understand this concept, but full houses by villain are all pretty irrelevant because I bet, he shoves, I call.

If he has a busted straight draw, then I want to bet real small to let him try to check-raise bluff me. If he has a pair of nines or jacks, then I want to bet what I think he will call, based on my experience with him. For most people, this is nearly the size of the pot. If he has a KQ or KJ, I want to bet the size of the pot.

So against a tricky player, especially one who might raise me preflop with JJ, I would bet $6 to induce a check-raise bluff or a raise with KQ or KJ. Against a passive calling station, I bet the pot.

Online against a guy playing a lot of games I would be less inclined to make the small bet than I would in a live setting, because your opponent won't have as much time to come up with a big check raise play as he would in a live setting.

Barry

Thanks for posting my question, Barry, and adding your input here. I really like the idea of the monthly Community Questions, and hope we do it again next month.

One part where I'd have to take issue is your idea that we can bet small to induce a check-raise bluff. A check-raise bluff from what, exactly? The most obvious straight draw got there on the river. I think the villain almost always has showdown value here and thus won't ever be bluffing on the river. Even if he did have 75s here, this seems like a pretty insane spot to go for a bluff. I think betting small lets two-pair hands get off the hook for cheaper than they should.

As for betting small to induce a check-raise from KQ......I don't know, I think the villain leads the river a lot with that hand. I mean, he's gotta think the hero is checking back the river quite often with any hand that doesn't contain or beat a king, and even if a hand like K9 suited or KJo does bet the river, can that hand really call a check-raise? I don't think it can.

Personally I'd rather just shove myself than try and get a KQ to check-raise me.

If you do read this, Barry, I'd certainly appreciate any response you have to this.

[Barry Greenstein]

Originally Posted by LvOverRide

One part where I'd have to take issue is your idea that we can bet small to induce a check-raise bluff. A check-raise bluff from what, exactly? The most obvious straight draw got there on the river. I think the villain almost always has showdown value here and thus won't ever be bluffing on the river. Even if he did have 75s here, this seems like a pretty insane spot to go for a bluff. I think betting small lets two-pair hands get off the hook for cheaper than they should.

As for betting small to induce a check-raise from KQ......I don't know, I think the villain leads the river a lot with that hand. I mean, he's gotta think the hero is checking back the river quite often with any hand that doesn't contain or beat a king, and even if a hand like K9 suited or KJo does bet the river, can that hand really call a check-raise? I don't think it can.
.

I added 9-7 in my post, as a hand he might raise with. It's not the hand more than the man. Many good players (including myself), like to raise small value bets if we don't think they can get called. I sometimes raise them even when I think I might have the best hand, figuring if I'm barely beat, he can't call.

Barry

[LvOverRide]

It just seems to me like any hand that's check-raising (ie. KQ, AK if he can have that, 79, other full houses) is doing so over a larger bet as much as a smaller one. The only way I see a smaller bet inducing anything is if the villain both has a hand like nines that he realizes isn't any good, and he thinks you're either capable of playing queens like this or can lay down the weaker kings to a raise.

Let me put it another way.

Say I'm the villain in this hand, which isn't a stretch seeing as how I actually was the villain in this hand. I have me that KJ, and I see you make a smallish $6 bet. Now, as tricky as I can get (I do make wacky plays from time to time), I really don't have much interest in raising that bet with KJ. Either you're going for thin value with a hand like queens or the occasional weaker king, or you have a big hand and you're trying to get me to do something stupid. Either way, raising doesn't accomplish anything.

I mean, I guess if I decided you'd be making your smaller bets with the weaker part of your range, then I could turn a hand like A8 into a bluff and try and push you off of it, or maybe even go ahead and raise my KJ and hope you either call with worse thinking I'm bluffing or that I accidently bluff you off something. I just personally think the hero is going to be strong here a lot and so it's not really a good idea to try and push him off of anything as the villain, regardless of whether he throws a small bet at you or not.

There may be one thing though that makes betting smaller correct in this specific circumstance: as the villain, when I called the turn, I was planning on folding my hand to any significant bet on the river, because even though I had a "strong" hand, I had a strong feeling I was beat. I might've very well called a $6 bet though.

As an epilogue, I ended up having K-T and shoved over a $22 bet, which the hero called. I chose to analyze this hand from the villain's perspective because I thought figuring out how much to bet on the river as the villain was the only real interesting part of the hand (although I did think very hard about folding on the turn). Everything after the hero bet the river was totally standard, and therefore as you said, "irrelevant".

[superchipz]

Just a couple thoughts here, first of all if I'm the 'hero' I am value betting the river, maybe not $22, but any 2/3 3/4 pot bet will do. It looks like the 'villian' def has a K (or 9-7) either way we want to get value from whatever he has. As the 'villian' that is a really sick check on the river with the nuts What did you put the 'hero' on to check there?? I think you must have put him on AK (or 88,66 i guess,,very good read if you did). The 'hero' I think was very unlucky to lose full over full in this spot, with the board so dry. I think I play it the same way on the end, value bet/stack off, since KT the only hand that really beats us there except TT maybe. As far as betting small to induce a raise, I think that may have been my line here on the river if I'm the 'villian'! By betting small as the hero I think I would feel like I'm missing value if I'm just called and win. As Barry said from the hero's perspective thats probably a line for a live setting.

[LvOverRide]

I was seriously suspecting the villain had KQ+ on the turn. Once that river hit I checked because I figured the villain would be betting any hand that could call me if I led, it'll allow him to bluff a third barrel if he's an idiot, and it'd allow me to check-raise and get called quite often whereas a lot of really strong hands can fold if I simply shove myself.

[superchipz]

Originally Posted by LvOverRide

I was seriously suspecting the villain had KQ+ on the turn. Once that river hit I checked because I figured the villain would be betting any hand that could call me if I led, it'll allow him to bluff a third barrel if he's an idiot, and it'd allow me to check-raise and get called quite often whereas a lot of really strong hands can fold if I simply shove myself.

Well played.. i guess most Kx hands might flat you on the river, since he was full i think all the money gets in anyway. btw i don't think he was 'bluffing a third barrel' i'm pretty sure he thought he had the best hand and was most likely value betting...

[Unicorn_Lord]

Originally Posted by LvOverRide

I was asked to stick this hand here, so here I will stick it. I'm going to add in a little more information than I did in the OP.

#6

This hand is sort of standard, but still worth taking a look at I suppose. Villain is a fairly aggressive multi-tabling regular. Hero has been very active but has not shown down a lot of hands.


Full Tilt No-Limit Hold'em, $0.50 BB (5 handed) - Full-Tilt Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

BB ($71.25)
UTG ($56.50)
Hero ($135.20)
Button ($53.55)
SB ($89.50)

Preflop: Hero is MP with 8, 8
1 fold, Hero bets $1.50, 1 fold, SB calls $1.25, BB calls $1

Flop: ($4.50) 6, K, 8 (3 players)
SB checks, BB checks, Hero bets $3, 1 fold, BB calls $3

Turn: ($10.50) K (2 players)
BB checks, Hero bets $8, BB calls $8

River: ($26.50) 10 (2 players)
BB checks

How much are we betting here, and why? Remember that the BB's stack size at this point is $58.75.

Also, what does the villain's hand look like?

I'm betting either pot or 1/3 the pot depending on whether or not I believe my opponent is on a 10 or not.
I'm betting the pot is I believe he's on a K. there is no way I can see him getting off trip kings. and if he's not a 10 then the other hands I can see him in here for A-K, K-Q and I doubt he's going to give me credit for a boat in this spot, much less trips.

[LvOverRide]

Originally Posted by superchipz

Well played.. i guess most Kx hands might flat you on the river, since he was full i think all the money gets in anyway. btw i don't think he was 'bluffing a third barrel' i'm pretty sure he thought he had the best hand and was most likely value betting...

Those were my thoughts as well during the hand, but you never know.....

[PokerViking]

Jonesin for some Red Pro thread activity! Anyone?